In this episode, Peta and Denise dig into why so many women in the helping professions struggle to charge for their work. Denise traces these money blocks back to deep-seated beliefs about the value of helping others, rooted in the historical roles women have played as caregivers and "wise women." Peta adds that this isn't just a mindset issue—it's also a training gap, noting that even academic programs preparing people for helping professions rarely teach business skills or financial management.

The conversation moves into practical territory, with Denise sharing personal experiences and strategies for building discernment and self-awareness around money, plus tips for setting boundaries around pricing. Throughout, both hosts emphasize the need for more open, judgment-free conversations about finances—especially for women navigating guilt around getting paid for meaningful work.

Takeaways 

• Setting boundaries and charging fair fees is an act of kindness that allows professionals to help more people long-term.
• Small affirmations, like "I serve, I deserve," can shift deep-seated guilt around self-care and pricing.
• Undercharging and over-giving often leads to burnout, while gradual boundary-setting can build a sustainable practice.
• New revenue streams, like group programs or retreats, can emerge once boundaries are in place.
• Incrementally upgrading everyday quality of life helps people acclimate to greater abundance over time.
• Tools like EFT (tapping) can help interrupt limiting patterns and reduce financial anxiety.
• Exploring personal "money origin stories" helps uncover and shift limiting beliefs around money.
• Building discernment — through new experiences and self-compassion — helps people make choices free from societal judgment. 

Please note: this transcript is unedited.

0:08
Welcome back everybody.

0:10
I'm very excited.

0:11
We're both having slight fangirl moments together.

0:14
So off air I was having a quick chat, but I'm really excited to introduce you to my very special guest today, Denise Duffield Thomas, who is a money mentor for the new wave of entrepreneurs who want to make money but also change the world.

0:27
And I know that's all of us listening out there now.

0:30
Her books, and I've read all of them, so I absolutely recommend.

0:33
Links are below.

0:35
Lucky ***** get rich Lucky ***** and her newest Chill and Prosper give a fresh and funny road map for living a life of abundance but without burnout.

0:45
Her money boot camp has helped over 10,000 students from all around the world.

0:49
And this is the most favorite part.

0:51
She's a lazy introvert.

0:52
She's also a Virgo and I'm a Virgo too.

0:54
Oh, you are.

0:55
I am a Hay House author and an unbusy mum of three and there's, there's a couple of pooches thrown in there too.

1:01
So welcome Denise.

1:04
Thank you so much for having me Peter.

1:06
I'm super excited.

1:06
And I have to say, every time I hear someone read out my bio, I always think, oh, I need to edit that because I'm busy in this phase of life is some days it's true, some days it's not.

1:15
But also I have now 2 cats on that.

1:18
So we've got 2 cats and the pooches.

1:21
Oh goodness, that's right.

1:23
And you, you, you of course hail from my childhood area because I grew up down in Port Stephen.

1:29
So you're down in oh, beautiful.

1:31
Yes.

1:32
Well, actually I was born in Manly.

1:36
So I've, I've lived in Sydney, Central Coast, Newcastle, London.

1:40
And I have to say Newcastle is one of my favourites.

1:42
It is, it's a beautiful place.

1:44
But look, we want to dive in and I know you're the absolute expert in this world and most, most of our listeners really are in the therapy or helping profession.

1:54
But I really want to kind of unpack some of the, the stuff here around, you know, abundance, wealth creation, you know, that kind of thing.

2:02
But obviously, you know, like your bio said, you know, helping and serving, but at the same time, you know, doing that without burnout.

2:09
But in all of your work out there, money boot camp and obviously, you know, just at large, why do you think in the helping professions, maybe money blocks exist or, you know, there is some sort of limit, whether it's a ceiling or otherwise.

2:24
What have what have you noticed that might be common in this particular profession?

2:28
Yes.

2:29
Well, OK, so first of all, I just want to tell people I'm not a financial advisor.

2:33
I'm not a counsellor myself.

2:35
I'm not an accountant.

2:37
I come in this place of curiosity and compassion.

2:41
And now that I've worked with so many people around the world and so many professions, I'll get people sort of say, that's all well and good, but that doesn't work for my profession, Denise.

2:51
And I hear this in every single industry, by the way.

2:54
And I've even done a couple of round tables within my community to say, OK, let's bring together some different professions to see what some of the commonalities are.

3:04
And I would say definitely in this hoping kind of profession, and there's definitely some nuances.

3:12
One of the biggest ones is definitely female dominated professions can have this real guilt around charging for helping.

3:23
And you know what I think this is?

3:24
So it can be very, very gendered for sure.

3:28
But also, I want anyone listening to think about this.

3:30
If you were born 200 years ago, but you're the same person, you would have been the wise woman on the edge of town and people would have brought you eggs and a chicken and occasionally maybe you were accused of witchcraft or whatever, right?

3:47
And so you think this kind of really goes deep, that this idea of holding space for people, listening to people, helping people solve their problems is something that you would do in any era of life in if you were born in any country, if that is who you were 300 years ago, born now, that is what you would end up doing in some way.

4:09
And that is who you are.

4:11
And so it becomes then kind of tricky to put a monetary value on that.

4:17
Now, this is similar, but I hear this a lot too in the health profession.

4:22
People say, I went into this work because I'm passionate about people having good health.

4:27
Good health is a human right.

4:29
And so then you start to go, so I'm not allowed to charge for that because I want everybody to know this information.

4:35
I want to help people.

4:36
You'll hear it in the spiritual world.

4:39
People say this is my God-given gift.

4:41
So who am I to charge for this?

4:44
And we always, we're always trying to find these little exceptions for ourselves, right of so we don't have to talk about money.

4:51
We don't have to put a monetary value on what we do and we have to do so much unpacking in this to say it's OK for me to charge for what I love to do, for what I'm good at, but also even if it's helping someone who is in pain.

5:09
And that's so tricky, right?

5:11
I've had people say I help people with vaginal prolapse.

5:15
I want this to be affordable for everyone.

5:17
You go, of course you do.

5:18
But that does not mean that you are not allowed to charge appropriately.

5:23
Have financial boundaries with your clients.

5:25
Find other sources of revenue in your business so you can also prosper.

5:30
It's not a binary choice.

5:32
I will have to say though, and I'm curious if this is true.

5:35
I've heard this from a lot of professions like this where the actual training itself re emphasizes these money blocks and you'll hear from professors.

5:46
I hope you're going into this for the right reasons or some.

5:49
Some industries even explicitly say you'll never make a good living out of this.

5:54
So I'm curious if that's true in the therapy world.

5:57
Yeah.

5:57
Look, even, you know, I teach here at masters level for psychology and it probably unfortunately isn't even covered.

6:04
So they go through all their clinical training.

6:06
They learn how to, you know, work with clients and talk to them, but they actually learn nothing about the building of a business, running a private practice, how to charge, how to not be a sole trader and pay certain percentages of tax versus setting up a family trust or a company.

6:22
They don't even learn any of that.

6:24
So I, I see a massive gap, you know, even in the teaching part of, I would say it's the same for our other allied health like physiotherapists or, you know, our medical professionals or, you know, occupational therapists, the full works.

6:37
Absolutely don't get a lesson or any course on any of that.

6:41
They're sort of expected, you know, to kind of jump ship at the end when they graduate and go out there.

6:46
Yeah, good luck.

6:47
So I think there is an inherent message around helping.

6:51
And even though it's not explicitly said, like you said, I'm curious, you know, to talk a little bit more, you mentioned and particularly I think it is a little bit gendered in, you know, some of our helping professions, nurses and, you know, psycho people are they're drawn to this.

7:07
But that guilt feeling, you know, so we know, you know, guilt can be almost inherently taught through, you know, I do lots of research in the food craving white area and that guilt part that comes up there.

7:20
But guilt being taught and kind of handed down through generations.

7:25
But guilt with the money bit about charging.

7:28
Like what do you see?

7:29
What do you notice about that feeling?

7:32
You know what, this isn't just in your profession.

7:35
I see this across the board for so many women who have to deal with money.

7:41
And I think it is because, of course, in an ideal world, we would want to help everybody.

7:46
We would want to have unlimited time, energy, money to be able to make the world a better place for everybody.

7:53
And I think there is just such a massive guilt attached for so many women.

7:59
And it's guilt that we can't help everybody we want to, that we can't make things as affordable as everybody wants to pay, that we don't have all of the time to do all the things.

8:11
And it is such a waste, wasted emotion.

8:14
And so one of the things I get people to do is to realize that one, having boundaries with clients can be a really kind thing.

8:23
Being very clear about money can be a very kind thing as well.

8:28
But also when you charge win win prices, it buys back a little bit of energy so you're not just always in fight or flight or stress.

8:36
And then you can create other things.

8:39
So you can write books, you can create low cost programs, you can create resources for your website.

8:45
So if someone comes to you and and says, look, I can't afford to work with you right now, you can say great, look at all these things I've created for you.

8:51
And you know, come back when you're ready to realize that doing those things is actually really generous.

8:57
Because no matter how much you burn yourself out, there's a cap, a physical limit cap to how many people you can see and help 1 to 1.

9:07
And the only way you can trick your brain, I think if you are a naturally, you know, a nurturing, helpful person is to realize that those things help you help more people, including the money side of it.

9:20
Absolutely.

9:21
And I think, you know, it's such an interesting concept because they are trained to do one-on-one, even in the hospital setting, of course, it's one patient at a time, that kind of thing.

9:30
And you get stuck a little bit, don't you in kind of thinking, well, I've limited time.

9:35
I can't do any more physically in my life.

9:38
And, you know, even though the idea of kind of creating all these extra things to help people, it's like if someone's listening in and kind of going, yeah, that appeals to me.

9:47
And I do want to be able to, it meets my values.

9:50
And, you know, I want to be able to create these things, but they're kind of, I guess overwhelmed or, you know, bordering on both compassion fatigue.

9:59
You know, where's a really good place?

10:01
Do you think that someone could start?

10:04
Maybe it's a practice.

10:05
Maybe it's.

10:05
I do want to unpack the things that, you know, what, I really appeal.

10:09
And full disclaimer here, everyone, I am in money boot camp with Denise, so I am Privy to everything that gets bought there, which is what appeals to you.

10:17
But you teach a lot of tools.

10:19
And I think that's what's so appealing.

10:21
It's not just information.

10:23
It's really about, OK, let's recognize what's going on here.

10:27
And now let's take a step.

10:28
If someone's listening and kind of going, yeah, this is resonating, I do want to create some of this and but the fear of the wall comes up, of course.

10:37
What do you think's a really nice, kind little place to start?

10:42
OK, here's a very little one, but it actually is.

10:44
So it contains multitudes, right?

10:47
So I probably first heard this affirmation like something like 20 years ago and I kind of modified it to be I serve, I deserve and you would have you would have heard me talk about this before.

11:01
I think this one is such a great one that comes up around guilt because often when we're nurturing people, we do we burn ourselves out to the to the point of no return and we're never actually receiving in.

11:15
So you can look at this in a very tiny way of I survived as if you know what, I'm going to take a lunch break, I'm going to go and pee.

11:23
I'm going to actually breathe because I cannot just keep on giving out.

11:26
I also have to take in.

11:30
This can be used when you feel guilty about charging, when you feel guilty in the moment.

11:35
If someone sends you an e-mail and says how dare you charge for blah blah blah, and you feel bad if someone's trying to guilt you into overstepping your time or money boundaries, you can stop and just go.

11:47
I serve, I deserve, I serve, I deserve, I deserve respect.

11:51
I deserve to receive in return.

11:55
I deserve to say no.

11:56
I deserve to set, you know, the terms of what I want to do.

12:00
And I think that is a good one to remember if you remember nothing else, because there's so many layers in that, you know, and I've and money does not make guilt go away, by the way.

12:13
And so you might think, oh, there'll be a perfect time in the future where I'll just not, you know, I'll be perfect.

12:20
I have to use this all the time.

12:22
I still feel guilty about things because I think it's just such a human, a human thing, right?

12:27
So I serve, I deserve write it down and start doing baby steps towards whatever boundary you need to do.

12:35
And I think sometimes taking stock of that and going, what is causing the name the most stressed at the moment?

12:40
And you might think, OK, all my sessions are going over, OK, how do I bring that back?

12:47
And you might have to go through that ISOV.

12:49
I deserve quite a few times, right?

12:51
And say no, no, no, it's I'm allowed to stick to my time.

12:55
Yours might be, you know, client's not paying.

12:59
OK, what can we put into place for that?

13:01
Maybe we have their, their card on file so we don't have to have this awkward conversation at the end.

13:08
Maybe you're seeing too many people and you have to cut that down.

13:10
So it's starting with those little, tiny little baby steps.

13:13
And I'll give you a really great example of this actually.

13:15
So I was working with a naturopath years ago who was just saying, oh, 1000 patients a year.

13:21
Well, right.

13:23
And so very similar, even though a different profession, very similar energy to therapists.

13:28
And she her sessions would go really, really long.

13:33
She'd try and solve every single problem in that one thing and she would always under charge.

13:40
So even though her price on her website say it was $75.00 for a consult, she'd in the room, she'd say, just give me $50, that's fine, just give me $50.

13:52
And then she would never recommend supplements because she felt like they're just going to think I'm in it for the money.

14:00
So she was over giving, but also withholding a little bit because she was afraid that people would think that she was trying to upsell them.

14:06
Now, I know with you guys, you don't upsell stuff, but she wasn't, she just didn't feel comfortable doing that.

14:12
And so I remember when I first worked with her, she was under charging.

14:16
Absolutely, but we had to baby step her way there.

14:19
So the first one was you tell people that's what you're going to charge.

14:22
Let's just charge what you said you were going to charge.

14:26
Like let's just start with that.

14:28
And that took months because in her mind she was like, I'm being a ***** I'm being horrible.

14:34
I feel bad.

14:35
And it's like people are coming to you.

14:37
They know what this the cost is.

14:38
Let's start with that.

14:40
And then she would then go, OK, well then my sessions are going over because they're just doing asking for a million things.

14:47
And so then she had to learn like I did when I started doing 1 to one coaching to say, that's great.

14:52
Let's put that down for next time, you know, because I deserve to have boundaries.

14:57
And then we worked our way up to OK, now why don't you actually tell them what supplements you recommend and, and be unattached to the outcome.

15:06
And then she could increase the prices and then she could do cancellation charges and all those other little boundary things that come into play.

15:14
But I had to start with her.

15:16
If I'm just going to charge what I said, I was going to charge.

15:19
And I think people listening, if you're thinking, Oh my God, this, I don't even know where to start.

15:24
It's like just pick one little thing that is a problem for you and I serve.

15:29
I deserve, I serve, I deserve, I serve, I deserve and solve them and solve them.

15:33
And then you know what?

15:34
She starts to realize she goes, I didn't even want to deal with that particular condition.

15:38
OK, I'm going to take that off.

15:39
And because first she was thinking, but if I don't help them, nobody will this martyrdom complex, right?

15:46
And so then you start to go, I'm allowed to choose the people that I work with.

15:50
That could be the next ladder, ladder on the rung.

15:53
And you don't have to change everything at once.

15:55
You acclimatize to better boundaries as you go.

15:59
And then what she realized was when she was actually charging what she was supposed to charge, she was like, I don't have to see 1000 patients a year.

16:08
Maybe I can see fewer patients.

16:10
And that's when she went, I'm going to do a create a group program.

16:14
I'm going to do an online program.

16:16
I'm going to run a retreat.

16:17
She didn't have any bandwidth for any of that stuff beforehand because she was so crispy and burnt out and.

16:23
And but now she can help so many more people.

16:27
I love that crispy.

16:28
It's such a good analogy.

16:30
And your boyfriend, AJ, that's my AJ who does UK Power.

16:34
She always talks about that crispy.

16:36
That's her word.

16:37
I love.

16:37
I like to attribute things so cool.

16:40
Yeah, I'm sure people can relate.

16:43
I like this baby step thing because I think, you know, everyone so concerned and freaked out about their nervous system and, you know, and the subconscious sort of putting the block up there.

16:52
But you talk about incremental upgrades as well in your progress aligns with this baby step thing.

16:57
Tell us what you mean by incremental upgrades.

17:00
Why?

17:01
Why it is good to take it slow like you are talking about maybe, you know, these ideas with therapists.

17:06
But yeah, like just in your life in general.

17:09
If we were trying to not be crispy, but at the same time kind of Yeah, like live in abundance and, you know, really be in a place of peace as well, like.

17:19
Oh, absolutely.

17:20
Yeah.

17:21
What about the incremental upgrades?

17:22
Tell us about?

17:23
Yes.

17:24
So when people come into money boot camp, I get them to do this big assessment and we put things like, you know, what's your chair, What's your betting?

17:33
Like, what are your underwear?

17:34
And you have to rank them.

17:35
Is it economy class, premium economy, business class or first class?

17:39
And I think the reason why we do that is because if you say to someone, you know, how abundant are you?

17:45
It's really hard to quantify that, right?

17:47
But you can pick up something and go, you know what?

17:49
This is a comedy class.

17:50
I'm putting up with it, whatever.

17:52
And we do that because I just want people to get a sense of the flavor of their life.

17:57
What are the stories behind that?

17:59
Are you someone who makes do?

18:03
Are you someone who you don't even realize how many accommodations you're making in your day because you're like, oh, I've got this jacket on, but it's got a RIP, so I have to make sure I button it up and oh, I have to start my computer 50 times before it gets up.

18:16
Or, you know, oh, I've got a bad back because my office chair is squeaky.

18:20
I want you to start to really look at those things in a very practical way and see where you can incrementally upgrade that.

18:30
And I think it's getting away from that lottery mentality of like, here's my life.

18:34
And then suddenly one day I'm going to win the lottery and everything's going to be perfect.

18:38
And the reason why so many people cannot hold on to a lottery win is because they do not they've not acclimatized to that level of abundance.

18:47
And so for some of us, we do need to go softly, softly and allow ourselves to have a little bit more comfort, a little bit more joy, a little bit less friction.

18:59
And it sounds easy, but some of us are so used to making do, we almost don't know who we are around that.

19:08
And so sometimes I just say to people, just pick something and upgrade it, right?

19:13
Just take it to that next level.

19:14
And sometimes we'll overcompensate and you'll go actually a first class version of that would be, I don't know, really fancy high heels.

19:21
And then you go, oh, actually I don't like wearing fancy high heels.

19:24
I love creating my sketches every day.

19:26
So you kind of dial that one down a little bit.

19:28
But for some people, these upgrades are so profound and it almost becomes a little bit of a rabbit hole.

19:35
And I'll say to someone, you know your underwear and they'll go, Oh yeah, I'm wearing these ready underwear.

19:40
And it's like, OK, well, let's let's upgrade that to the next level.

19:43
And it all this stuff comes up that you don't even realize.

19:48
OK, so I'll give you one example for me.

19:50
I had an event that I had to go to and I needed to get a special strapless bra that had like a little bit of a dip.

19:56
You know those ones.

19:57
Yeah.

19:57
So I went into the shop and I was like, wow, there are lots of.

20:01
And my first thought was that you already have a beige bra.

20:05
You're only allowed to have one.

20:07
Who are you to who do you think you are, the queen of England?

20:11
And I've 2 beige bras.

20:14
Today's like that is just extravagance.

20:17
Mind you, I was already a millionaire at this stage, by the way.

20:21
So money, take money out of the equation.

20:24
And what I realized is I felt so guilty having more than I needed in any category.

20:31
I was like, but you already have a pair of jeans, you know.

20:34
And so I realized too, when I was at school, I was allowed one pair of school shoes a year.

20:40
That's it.

20:41
So they were a bit big term one.

20:43
They fit for kind of term 232 type term 4.

20:46
So I was used to having discomfort in my life and I was used to having to make do with whatever life would give me kind of thing.

20:57
And so sometimes the shoes would not fit because I would only pay my mom could afford.

21:02
And even then, even with money, I still felt like, what am I allowed to have?

21:07
What am I?

21:08
What do I have to put up with?

21:09
And I had, so I've got a lovely chair now, right?

21:13
I upgraded it, never had to think about it again.

21:15
But for years I was like, no, no, no, I'm not allowed to have.

21:20
We might just put up with it.

21:22
And so that's where we have to start.

21:24
Not for stuff reasons, not for buying and fake it till you make it reasons.

21:29
We're doing it because we're trying to find out edges of what we're allowed to have what, what unspoken rules we have around things.

21:41
And that's where the curiosity comes to play, which I think your audience will be so good at because you're good at it with connecting the dots with your clients and you're good at having compassion for your clients.

21:52
And so start to find out what stories are behind some of your things.

21:56
And what I love about my job is when people go, I've got this key ring and I don't know why and we go, let's talk about it.

22:06
What does it symbolize?

22:08
And it might be, you know what, I feel like I have to do this because that was my father's dream.

22:13
Or, you know, my grandma once said it's really impolite to talk about money, so I cannot send an invoice to save my life.

22:19
And we're just looking for those 3 lines to give ourselves permission.

22:23
And yes, we want to acclimatize you and we can sometimes do that with stuff.

22:29
But sometimes I find once you've kind of upgraded to a base level, it's those nuances.

22:36
It's like, you know what, I really want to have 15 minutes between my sessions.

22:40
Am I allowed to do that?

22:42
Am I allowed to pay in between?

22:45
That's when you start to go.

22:46
I serve.

22:47
I deserve.

22:48
I've heard some horror stories about everyone being online during COVID.

22:52
And yeah, I've seen clients, but also, you know, meetings and people not literally not getting up to go to the toilet.

22:58
And yeah, like 8-9 hours because, you know, yeah, horror stories just about what people were kind of doing.

23:05
And I think I really like the concept that, you know, even just testing yourself out, even if there's no way that you're going to upgrade the cushions in your therapy room or your chair or your computer or whatever.

23:16
But the thought of just thinking about it can push you to the edge to kind of at least give you some ability to reflect on, oh, what's this about?

23:25
Yeah.

23:26
What if I was to.

23:27
And if I had the ability to go buy new cushions or whatever, or have 15 minutes in between my clients and see one less client a day, what does that mean?

23:37
And I like this, you know, it brings up the edge and then we get an opportunity to kind of choose if we want to do something about it, that kind of thing.

23:45
Yes.

23:46
Yeah, exactly.

23:47
And sometimes it is those little things that are, are really profound.

23:53
And I think you're worthy of having a beautiful space.

23:57
The other thing though, in COVID, what I found was interesting is people who had been saying to themselves for years, I can't do things online.

24:06
And it's like, no, you can.

24:07
And some people prefer it and maybe you prefer it that way.

24:12
And it was kind of a enforced upgrade, I think for so many of us and of, of really exploring what would work for us.

24:23
And you will grow and change throughout your career.

24:26
And some things work for you in a certain phase of your life.

24:29
And that's fine.

24:29
And you want to shift it.

24:31
But listen to the stories, you know, and say, no, I'm I am allowed to choose what would work better for me.

24:37
Some people want to have a physical location.

24:39
Some people want to upgrade that some people don't.

24:41
And there are no rules really anymore.

24:44
And yes, I know you have industry guidelines and standards you have to do, but so many of those things are self-imposed or we worry about what people will think and go.

24:54
Well, they won't.

24:55
No, some people won't do.

24:56
And it's like sometimes they're not your customers, they're not your clients anymore.

25:00
And that's OK too.

25:03
And you don't have to work with everybody.

25:04
You don't have to save everybody.

25:06
I serve, I deserve.

25:07
It's a big one.

25:08
And actually the funniest thing happened today.

25:12
So I normally do 5 interviews on a Thursday and the last couple of weeks I've had two of the five cancel and I've gone and just reschedule.

25:24
And I thought maybe the universe is trying to say 5 is in a day is too many delays, 3 is good.

25:30
You know what I mean?

25:31
And I'm like, sometimes the universe does have a funny way of enforcing, especially if we've been thinking about things for a while and you go, wouldn't it be nice if, oh, I wish I could do this?

25:40
Sometimes the universe forces your hand in that way.

25:43
So don't be surprised that that might happen where, you know, that client that you've been meaning to fire just kind of moves away or the perfect space comes up or you've been meaning to go online and then your lease runs out, Right.

25:58
And so pay attention to those little things because the universe has a funny way sometimes of forcing our hand.

26:03
True, true.

26:04
And look, it just absolutely dovetails now into, OK, some of this stuff comes up.

26:09
Even listening in today, someone might kind of go, oh, yeah, if I think about that, I've reached an edge.

26:14
What I love much about your work and your program, then the techniques or tools that you can use.

26:23
So it's not just about becoming aware, it's about now I need to transform.

26:27
And I know you've got an acronym about origin stories, but I really just want to talk about, you know, the tools that you suggest that you use yourself when this stuff comes up.

26:38
You know, that perhaps people want to go off and explore further after this episode, you know, tell us about what you found.

26:46
And of course, we share the love of tapping.

26:47
So we need we need to mention that one.

26:50
Well, I am going to talk about that one at first because I read my first personal development book when I was 14.

26:56
And so I was always obsessed with personal development and I loved reading about how you can change your, you know, your mindset and journaling and all of these things.

27:05
And I feel like I did really struggle with how to implement a lot of those things until I found EFT.

27:14
So the way I found it, I was living in London in my early 20s and really struggling with, you know, what's my purpose in life.

27:24
And we had a temp secretary at work who was an actress, a photographer, and she was just doing a bit of temp work.

27:31
And she said, oh, have you ever read Louise Hay's work?

27:34
And I was like, Oh my God, no.

27:36
So she gave me my first Louise Hay book.

27:38
And then she said, have you ever heard of tapping?

27:41
And I was like, no, and just like you, I had to learn it via DVD.

27:46
So she lent me and she was like, this was very expensive.

27:49
It's very precious.

27:50
She lent me her DVDs and I went home and I learned how to do it.

27:54
And it was back in the day where you had to hum.

27:57
You had to roll your eyes one way, roll the other way, count to 5, sing happy birthday, all of those things.

28:03
And I did find it quite complicated, but two things happened pretty quickly.

28:08
One, I stopped my trichotillomania that I'd had since I was a very, very young kid.

28:16
Wow, you know, out of anxiety and things like that, that immediately was gone.

28:24
And one of the other things I, it was a couple of years later, but I had not gone in the ocean for 15 years because I was scared of sharks.

28:31
Oh, wow.

28:31
Because I had AI had a better movie.

28:34
Oh, no, you that did No, I that did that, it impacted me as well, for sure.

28:39
Jaws.

28:39
Oh my God.

28:40
But no, I was out swimming with my grandmother and we were very tired.

28:44
We got stuck out beyond the waves in Foster.

28:47
And when we were just exhausted, we, we saw what I thought was sharks, but they were actually porpoises up in Foster.

28:56
But it was such a a big experience for me that I did not go in the ocean for 15 years because I was just terrified.

29:04
I couldn't even go up into my ankles.

29:05
And I actually didn't even like going in pools, I have to say, because of the trap door that the truck would come out of right.

29:11
And so though that experience with, with learning EFT in that way was so life changing for me.

29:20
And I, I teach, you know, a very small modified version of it in my money bit camp.

29:27
But it is such a profound tool.

29:30
And I even used it literally yesterday with my daughter.

29:36
I told, I've told all of my kids how to tap.

29:39
She was having all these problems at school with somebody and she was just like, I want them to change.

29:44
I want them to change the behaviour.

29:45
So we had to do, even though I can't change people's behaviour, even though she might not like it, even though I'm really angry about it.

29:54
And it is such a profound tool.

29:57
I cannot recommend it highly enough so that I think that is the one I'm always like smeared on everything.

30:05
It's going to work for everything as a first point of call.

30:09
I I also think though I talk about patent interrupting a lot and AFT is my quick go to for that.

30:17
But I think normalization of money is one of the biggest patent interrupters we can do.

30:24
And so that means if you were always surrounding yourself with people who talk about money in a negative way or it is a rude topic or whatever, it's so difficult to find a different way of being.

30:36
So even if there are people in other professions, having people even just celebrate money is such a big thing.

30:44
And my money mentor, Kendall Summerhawk, who I love and I credit for so much of my work, she said, I want you all to be able to talk about money as simple as saying pass the salt.

30:57
And when we can do that, and just to be like, this is what I charge for a session without all of the stuff that's behind it.

31:07
I'm a bad person.

31:08
I'm a greedy *****.

31:10
Maybe they can't afford it.

31:11
They're going to think this of me.

31:13
That's all the stuff that we do need to dig in with bit by bit, but being just able to have that normalized conversation is just wonderful.

31:22
And that's what I aim for with my kids.

31:24
A few people have said, oh, you teach your kids to have an abundant mindset.

31:26
I'm actually trying to teach them neutrality around money.

31:30
So as much as possible, and of course it's impossible, I'll give them other money blocks for sure.

31:35
But if we can just feel neutral about money, money just is.

31:39
It's not a good or a bad thing.

31:40
People use it in good and bad ways, but I am not a good or a bad person for having it.

31:45
That's where I want to aim for neutrality.

31:48
Yeah.

31:50
And this whole kind of, you know, patent interrupter tapping is a brilliant one.

31:55
Sometimes that is about learning the origin story.

31:57
Like we you mentioned before about you come, you just try on a new idea and kind of go, oh, what's come up there?

32:03
And that origin story really gives us something to go back to sometimes, doesn't it?

32:08
That, you know, we all from somewhere, we all had parents at some level or caregivers.

32:12
And yeah, sometimes we do need to kind of go back there, don't we either do tapping or some sort of other sort of patent interruptor work.

32:21
Yes.

32:21
Well, when people come into money boot camp, I asked them to do a bit of an inventory.

32:25
What are some of your memories about money?

32:27
And I give some prompts because sometimes we don't know until we, you know, a prompted talk to it because I want to see what's the general flavor of your childhood experiences?

32:38
Is it one of lack?

32:39
Is it scarcity?

32:41
Is it feast or famine?

32:42
Is it abundance?

32:43
And there's no real correlation to how someone grew up in terms of class necessarily, because people will say, you know what?

32:50
We're poor, but everyone was poor and we didn't really even think about it.

32:54
Or we're poor, but my parents always like made sure we had enough.

32:58
I've heard people say we were middle class, but I went to a fancy private school.

33:04
So I was the poor kid or I was the rich kid because we had slightly more than anyone else.

33:09
Or we were really wealthy.

33:11
But my parents always made us feel like we're being homeless on the street in the next week.

33:14
And So what what we're looking for is those contrast experiences that made you decide something about yourself.

33:23
And so that is the, the O of OCP.

33:27
The thing that I teach is what is, what are the general origin stories?

33:31
But then we're looking for the cost and the consequence.

33:33
And this is where we can draw that through line and to say, well, look, you know, my grandma always said it was really impolite to talk about money.

33:40
So that's why I can't set a price.

33:42
That's why I can't send an invoice.

33:43
That's why I find it really difficult to enforce my cancellation policy or to chase up a client.

33:49
You can just draw that through line and then the P of OCP is the patent interrupter.

33:54
But sometimes we don't know what those origin stories are until we are feeling the pain in the moment, and then we have to go back and reverse engineer it.

34:03
So I feel like that is an ongoing process because even though I've been doing this work every day for 15 years, there'll still be things that I go I'm seeing in a completely new way.

34:16
Oh, wow.

34:16
Or I didn't remember that, or it wasn't even necessarily a childhood experience.

34:22
It was the era I grew up in and the TV that I watched at that time.

34:26
That has made a little thing.

34:28
And sometimes we don't realize again until the contrast.

34:30
So you might say, oh, wow, that's really interesting that that new generation of therapists is talking about money in a different way that could make you realize something.

34:39
And even on that point, actually, when people complain about Gen.

34:44
Z and their work ethic a little bit and there's definitely some truth in it, don't no one get offended.

34:50
But you start to go, Oh, yeah, we like, my generation was like, who cares about your well-being?

34:58
Like just go to work.

34:59
And it's like, **** it up and do it.

35:01
Yes, Right.

35:02
And on top of that, I was a dancer as well.

35:04
So it was like, the show must go on no matter what.

35:08
And I had to really examine that in myself of going.

35:11
I've never cancelled anything.

35:12
I've never said no to anyone.

35:14
And I remember the first time I think I cancelled, it was something, it was might have been even a podcast interview or something.

35:20
And I was like, what are you doing?

35:23
No, this show must go on.

35:26
And it's like, yeah, but sometimes you could it's OK to postpone the show or, you know, and it's, it's really interesting every time you can go, oh, that's why instead of just going, I'm I'm a bad person.

35:39
I'm not being generous or whatever it is.

35:41
You can go, well, there's a reason behind this.

35:45
And I can have compassion for myself and I can do some tapping around it.

35:48
Is this something that I can change?

35:50
Is this a limiting belief or is this just a new aha and a new way of being that I can integrate?

35:57
And and also to being very aware of you're allowed to change your mind around things because my capacity free kids, it was different.

36:07
My capacity pre perimenopause was different.

36:11
And there'll be other times where I can ebb and flow.

36:14
But it is the the thread throughout that is a mission and passion I serve.

36:20
I deserve I'm allowed to choose and that can be really difficult people.

36:27
Fantastic.

36:28
Oh, I'm thinking you actually just triggered a an origin story.

36:31
I just saw.

36:33
Oh, I'm going to go off and do some tapping on that one.

36:35
Tell us, tell us, tell us.

36:36
I know I would have it.

36:37
So you said something about that if you'd had slightly more as a child that you might have been labeled in a certain way.

36:45
And it made me think and again, you you often go, oh, I thought I thought of this 15 years ago and tapped on it.

36:50
Jeez, that might have made a difference.

36:51
But I do think the brain protects you until you're ready.

36:54
Sometimes true.

36:57
Look, if my theme of growing up, it was like, yeah, just a normal childhood.

37:01
You know, my parents were very young, 1819 when they kind of fell pregnant and got married, but they're still together 3 kids later.

37:10
Yeah.

37:10
So I think it was a fairly normal upbringing.

37:14
But, you know, there were phases where it might have been that we were perceived at all the extended relatives as kind of being the rich family.

37:25
But I look back and kind of go, oh, in no shape or form was that the case at all.

37:29
There might have just been times in life, dad being a contractor, that there was a bit more kind of, you know, income and things like that.

37:35
What that looks like, I've no idea.

37:37
But it was interesting, the judgement.

37:39
And it's kind of like, oh, well, maybe there is something because it just popped in when you said that.

37:45
And I'm like, yeah, I think people did think that we were the rich cousins.

37:47
And I'm like, but I don't think that we were at all.

37:50
But yeah, I'm wondering how that plays out.

37:52
So don't worry everyone.

37:53
I'm taking that one away as I do and I explore a bit further.

37:57
So it's curious when things come in, pay attention to them because it could be a story there in the background.

38:03
I think you brought up a really good point, right?

38:05
This fear of being called too big for our boots can happen at any income level.

38:10
And so if you're holding yourself back because you're worried, the first time I got called too big for my boots was growing up in a council estate.

38:19
Everyone had the same house and I asked my friend's parents if they had any condiments and they made fun of me for being too.

38:28
They made fun of me for being too big for my boots.

38:30
And so I just think you could literally be in any era of time, any strata of society and someone you know, if you have tiny little bit more than someone else, they might call you too big for your boots.

38:41
And so there's, we hold ourselves back because we think we can protect ourselves from it, but we really can't.

38:47
Because I think what sometimes people want from me, if they ask me for advice, they want assurance that they're building a critic proof business, a critic proof price, a critic proof boundaries, and that they'll somehow find the one thing that everyone agrees is fair and kind and right.

39:07
And we tie ourselves up in knots trying to find that thing.

39:11
Or we procrastinate putting something forward because we think they must be a thing.

39:15
And there will always be something if, if you offer everything for free, there'll be people who will complain about it.

39:21
If you offer things for a dollar, people complain and say it's too expensive.

39:24
And so that's where you have to then build that discernment muscle and say, what do I want knowing that someone's going to criticize me anyway?

39:34
What would feel good for me and what feels true and in integrity for me?

39:39
And I think that is a tricky thing.

39:41
And so a couple of ways that people can practice this has got nothing to do with business.

39:47
One is truly ask yourself what you feel like eating in a restaurant instead of automatically choosing what you think you're allowed to have or what you should have or basing it on price.

39:58
And we're not saying go and buy $1,000,000 steak somewhere, but it's just like those tiny little moments of just saying no, no, not the default, but what do I actually want?

40:09
The other one is go into a shop and before you.

40:14
Look at the price to see if you like it.

40:17
Give yourself time to like, does that, does this feel good?

40:21
What colors make me happy?

40:23
And try things on because those little things help you to develop your discernment muscle and you will absolutely make mistakes.

40:31
And when I get people to do this incremental upgrade stuff, I'm sure you've done it as well.

40:35
Peter, I have where you kind of overcorrect a little bit and then you go, oh, no, that's my, that's someone else's version of a rich person's thing.

40:43
I actually don't want that.

40:44
And that's OK.

40:45
You can dial things down, you can try things out.

40:48
But I think most of us are living in this default of what am I allowed to have or what am I, what is everyone else having or what do people expect from me?

40:57
And when you give yourself permission to that, you can go, oh, it's OK for me to want what I want, but it's a bit of a process.

41:04
So true.

41:05
And you just reminded me and I will share everyone.

41:07
So I reached the pinnacle of my academic career a year ago where I got promoted to a full professor.

41:14
And that was just don't say that.

41:15
Yes, I know, I know I'm going to get in trouble.

41:18
But it was funny because I'd said to my girls who are now both young adults, oh, you know, I've got this goal.

41:25
And when I get there, I'm going to buy myself a pair of red bottom shoes.

41:30
Louboutins, everyone.

41:31
Because in my mind there was a couple of, you know, people that kind of wore them.

41:36
And I'm like, yes, that would be like the sign.

41:39
And so of course, when I get my notice a year ago that like I got a notified first, yes, you've been successful at promotion, blah, blah.

41:47
I text the girls.

41:48
I because it was code Mum gets to go and buy her red bottom shoes.

41:53
And the girls knew what that meant.

41:55
Anyway, months go by, I don't go shopping.

41:59
And I remember both of them sort of going, oh, you haven't bought yourself, you know, you were going to buy yourself this gift, you know, just to reward myself or whatever.

42:07
And I'm like, it's really interesting.

42:09
You know, I don't think I really want a pair and to this day I've never bought the shoes.

42:15
I've done other kind of, you know, celebrations of, you know, achieving that outcome.

42:22
But and I'm like, but it's really interesting because it was someone else's idea.

42:25
I don't even know where it came from, but when I really tried it on, I actually went into the shop and went, I don't really know.

42:32
They're not that comfortable.

42:33
Sorry if you haven't out there anyone, but I'm like, and I don't think.

42:37
And so I've never bought them.

42:38
It was, it was not really about, you know, the price or anything.

42:41
It was like, I don't know where this came from, but I don't actually need to do this.

42:45
So yeah, really interesting.

42:47
Yeah.

42:48
Well, I think that is such a great illustration, right, of we want to get to a point where it's not about the money.

42:54
It's not about whether you can afford something or not.

42:56
It is about the discernment and the choosing.

42:59
But also as part of the incremental upgrade thing.

43:01
Sometimes people feel like it's all or nothing.

43:03
And so people will say, well, I really want to leave in my neighborhood and I'm like, okay, well, why don't you rent there, See if you like it.

43:10
And they're like, no, no, no, it has to come in this exact way.

43:13
And I have to buy the thing.

43:15
And so with especially with designer stuff, right?

43:18
I think this is so perfect.

43:19
My friend taught me this of she's like, you can buy them secondhand and see if you like it.

43:25
You can Rent the Runway and see if you like it.

43:28
And there's this thing of like, it's OK to experiment and try and some things you will go, oh, that is a story.

43:37
That is because I used to watch movies in the 90s of successful women and that's how they dressed, you know?

43:45
And it's like, oh, I can undo that story.

43:47
That's great.

43:48
And then it might be what is that thing for me?

43:50
You know, what is my edge?

43:51
And it's so interesting about how these stories will come up again and again and again.

43:57
So I, I bought a new car on Monday and I've been driving my car car for seven years.

44:05
And it, you know, it's, I would say it was a business class car when I first bought it, right?

44:10
But it's had wear and tear.

44:14
You know, it's had kids in it.

44:15
Every, every surface has been thrown up on it by some point.

44:18
It's right, But the last couple of months my keyless entry stopped working.

44:23
So I just start digging out my keys again.

44:24
I know rich people problems, but my handbrake thing kind of came weird off and I had to use a pair of tweezers to like push in the little pin, right?

44:34
And so I kept on going.

44:36
I mean, I don't care about cars, whatever.

44:39
But what I realized though, it was that feeling of no, no, no, you have to put up with things because you have to be humble.

44:46
You have to be humble and down to earth and then people will like you.

44:50
And this is the same issue I have to deal with at every single income level forever because that is my core wound, right?

44:57
I have to be accommodating because my mum was 17 when I had me, right?

45:03
So it's like I don't want to make, I don't want to make trouble.

45:06
And so I had to sit and do tapping in my new car and just be like I serve, I deserve.

45:11
I serve, I deserve because part of me was like, why do you need it?

45:17
Yeah.

45:17
And again, this is for me, made millions of dollars in my business and I still have to deal with that because we're still the same person inside.

45:26
And so it's OK to overcorrect.

45:28
It's OK to overcome and say, but what we want you to do is become passionate and curious about your stories because now I don't have to go into a spiral.

45:38
I don't have to crash my new car to to, you know, sabotage that.

45:43
I can just be like, oh, it's OK, yes, oh, babe, it's all right.

45:48
It's fine.

45:49
So cool.

45:51
Denise, if anyone's listening in and they're like, I want more of this.

45:54
And I would like to, you know, explore more of Denise DT.

45:58
Tell us a little bit about where people can find you and about your signature programs.

46:03
Yes, perfect.

46:04
So the first thing to do, just come and follow me on social media, especially Instagram.

46:08
Denise DT is my handle.

46:10
You can listen to my podcast that comes out every week too.

46:13
So it's called Chill and Prosper with Denise Daffield Thomas, easy to find.

46:17
And then if you want to read one of my books, that's a great place to start.

46:21
Get rich lucky ***** talks about money blocks.

46:23
Chill and Prosper is more about business.

46:26
And even though I don't, you know, it's not a book about therapists, but it's really about those things about boundaries and setting yourself up and giving yourself permission to make things as easy as possible for you.

46:38
That's a good place to start.

46:39
But if you want to dive in, you know, deeper, you can come and join my money Boot camp at any time with live calls at the end of the month.

46:45
And these are the kind of conversations we have.

46:47
We pick a topic, we dive into it, we have some Ahas together.

46:51
We always do tapping on the calls, which I love.

46:53
And and then you're in a community of people who are who are talking, having these conversations too.

46:58
So wherever you're at, there's something from free and low commitment to, you know, a book is a great thing to get for Christmas.

47:05
By the way, if it's coming out before Christmas or jump straight in to working with me, fantastic.

47:10
And we have all those links below everyone so that if you want to go off and explore further, maybe I'll come across you in some of the community.

47:17
And I think that's part of the the richness of this is hanging out in those communities.

47:23
You know, whether it's part of, you know, money boot camp or just social media where your feed and you've talked about this, you can curate the feed of what gets shown to you that really, you know, aligns and yeah, isn't sort of random.

47:35
But by following people like Denise, you, you start to get more of that and it's positive and it's supportive and it can be quite manipulated in the social media space, which, yeah, absolutely recommend.

47:48
Denise, this has been wonderful dream come so funny having a conversation with you.

47:52
So I look forward to seeing you online again soon and doing some tapping.

47:57
Thanks so much everyone.

Money Bootcamp https://www.denisedt.com/bootcamp

Chill and Prosper Podcast https://www.denisedt.com/podcast 

Books https://www.denisedt.com/books
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