Dr Anna Yusim

Dr Anna Yusim - Where Psychiatry Meets Spirituality

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Transcript

Please note: this transcript is unedited.

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Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of The Fourth Wave in Therapy. I'm absolutely delighted to have a recommended colleague here today from one of our regulars, Dr. Lauren Brown, but with me is Dr Anna Yusum, MD. Now, Dr Anna is a board-certified psychiatrist and lecturer at Yale Medical School, who integrates spiritual principles with Western medicine to improve mental

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mental health.

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She is the author of Fulfilled, How the Science of Spirituality Can Help You Live a Happier, More Meaningful Life, and co-founder of the Yale Mental Health and Spirituality Program.

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Dr. Usam specialises in helping individuals, including high-performing executives and athletes, align their personal and professional lives with a deeper sense of purpose.

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Welcome, Anna. I'm so delighted to have you here with me.

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Thank you so much, PETA. It is such a pleasure to be here with you.

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It is wonderful, and I think, you know.

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no more timely in this moment in the world to be discussing the additions that can come into the therapy space. But before we kind of dive deep, because I am really curious about the research and the science to back all of this.

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You've had, obviously, what looks like a very traditional training in medicine, and certainly psychiatry. So how… how did it come to be that you ended up, obviously, through your traditional training, embracing or finding or including spirituality?

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Absolutely. It's such a great question, because you're exactly right. I went to Stanford, to Yale, medical school, did my residency at NYU, and I, you know, had anyone told me 25 years prior that I would be a spiritual person, I would have laughed.

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It was the furthest thing from my mind. My father is very rational, my mother's always been very spiritual, but I've always been a lot like my father. And, you know, we are Jewish, but the Judaism for me was about history and culture, not about a connection to the divine or mysticism.

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But then, towards the end of my residency, unusual and unexpected things started to happen in my life that led me to question the world and our place in it. And especially, you know, here I am being a psychiatrist, learning about the mind.

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And things are starting to happen that defy what I have been taught in medical school. I had, for instance, a psychic come up to me once in New York City and say.

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I'm a psychic, and I have a message for you. Can I give you a message?

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she looked relatively innocuous, and I'm like, sure, give me your message. And this woman starts telling me all these truths about my life that she has no possible way of knowing, including the name of the guy I had a crush on. I was like, who are you? And then I'm just like, what just happened here? But I also remember that things were happening, and I was like.

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Oh, yeah, the world works a little bit differently. It was more like I was remembering, as opposed to I was kind of seeing this for the first time. I was like, oh yeah, of course! Of course people have this arcane knowledge. Of course people can tap into some reservoir of information about each other. And so, then afterwards, I, you know, continued to learn, and it became a part of the way that I see the world, and

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part of my research and part of the way in which I work with patients.

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That's… I'm just trying to imagine, walking down the street and having a psychic come up to you, and it gives you all this information. It certainly does, kind of indicate that perhaps there's a lot more out there than we realize. So, as your journey evolved then, and obviously you're expanding beyond, perhaps, you know.

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Just history and things like that, but learning more about the science behind these kind of approaches.

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Was it something you kept quite personal and weren't sharing with colleagues? Was it something that you were trying to talk to other people about in your field? How did it go?

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Yeah, so at first, it was something more my own personal inquiry to answer questions, like, what just happened? Why are these interesting and unusual things happening? Because alongside that psychic, I started having dreams about my patients that would come true, like predictive dreams. Patients started happening… having dreams about things happening in my life that they also had no way of knowing about. Something was happening that was breaking down the veil between the known and the unknown.

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And really showing me how interconnected we are as human beings.

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So, I started to read about this, I started to go to a lot of different spiritual classes to understand and ask these questions, and I started studying Kabbalah, and I became part of the Kabbalah Center in New York City. That was one of my spiritual paths.

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And in the midst of that.

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I learned all of these different principles, which in many ways were in stark contrast to what I had learned in medical school. For instance, in medical school, we are taught that everything that you… that is truth and reality can be seen and known. You subject it to the double-blind, controlled trials that are placebo-controlled, everything is reproducible, quantifiable.

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In the spiritual world, in Kabbalah, they thought that actually, that which can be seen and known is only 1% of reality. 99% of reality is unseen and unheard.

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completely different paradigm. Where is this other reality? How do you make sense of it? If you go into the world of quantum physics, they have similar explanations and science to back it up.

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So, I started really thinking about some of these things. Also, the idea of a soul. Never when I went to Stanford a year was a soul mentioned, but I'm a psychiatrist, and psyche, one of the translations of psyche is a doctor of the soul, a psychiatrist. So…

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why wasn't I taught how to work with the soul? Why was I taught how to work with medication and therapy? What is the soul? So that led me to travel the world to try to figure out what is the soul, and how is it involved in healing? And that ultimately led me to work with patients more in that way, and

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To write my book.

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Amazing. And I am thinking about… I did not know that that was the definition of psyche and, Dr.

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That's one of them. Psyche can be translated as mind or as soul.

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Oh, that's wonderful. I'm going to update that up here. I am wondering then, with this kind of… you're out there, and you're exploring, and you're kind of going.

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Why do you think that it… there is still this kind of separateness in the medical field with what you were learning versus what you had traditionally learned? And I'm guessing, in your mind, you're overlaying, how can I integrate this?

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Why do you think the separateness exists? Is it because we just deal with the 1%, it's much easier to be able to see and work with, and certainly I know, you know, we've moved, hopefully, beyond Descartes, you know, separateness of mind and body, but why do you think medically that there still is this separateness?

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I think that we're in the midst of a paradigm shift. I think that our ideas about this are indeed shifting, and yet the people who uphold the old paradigm and have devoted their lives and careers to upholding the old paradigm, and are used to seeing the world and reality through the old paradigm, where science is the currency of exchange of the Western world, that is…

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the way that it is, and it hasn't changed yet. There will be a time where it will change and expand. Already, we're moving from, you know,

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from Newtonian physics to quantum physics, we're moving to many different realities as to how we're seeing things.

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We have, you know, AI is expanding our capacities for what's possible. We have worlds made out of bots now, where humans aren't allowed. I mean, all of these things, you know, there's just boundaries that are being crossed that we never thought could be crossed before. And the same in our understanding and nature of reality. So I think we're in the midst of a paradigm shift.

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Great, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this, because we're coming from the psychological kind of therapy world, noticing the same thing, and I… what I'm noticing, because I'm teaching, obviously, at master's level, the next generation of therapists coming through, but…

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It's these guys coming through who are, you know, decades younger than us as lecturers, that are rejecting the status quo, and they're going, yep, no, that's probably not really answering what my client needs, so therefore I'm going to look over here regardless of whether there's some…

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you know, tick of evidence-based approval, or permission to use, or anything. They are literally embracing what we're calling more that kind of body-based, you know, somatic approaches. So, we're seeing it too in our kind of talk therapy world.

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And I wonder if in the next, kind of, couple of decades, these guys will be the ones that run the committees, make the guidelines.

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that they're the ones that will shift it. Do you think the same's happening internally in the medical system, that maybe the embracing is coming from the younger ones coming through?

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Yeah, I think that that's ultimately what is leading, you know, and there are also, to be clear, older pioneers within the system that have been working from within the system to expand the system their whole profession and career, and everybody doubted them and laughed at them, and now they're like, oh yeah, but that's the way that paradigm shifts, you know, Thomas Coon, that's how paradigm shifts usually evolve. But I do believe that it's going to be with the younger generation, where people are going to start to see the world anew.

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And I think that our world is changing at an unprecedented speed, and in unprecedented ways that we can't even imagine.

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the paradigm shifts that are going to happen, not just in our understanding of science in the world, but by virtue of AI entering science in the world, we can't even conceive of what is going to happen, you know, and as to how, you know, how we see the world and what is true and real.

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I think that we're gonna, begin to seek more and more evidence to validate frameworks of scientific or spiritual paradigms

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that mystics have been talking about for ages. I mean, that seems very cliche and mundane, you know, but this is happening. This is what quantum theory, this is what a lot of, some of the most…

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renowned… you know, there's even, a Nobel Prize given for quantum theory just 2 years ago, so…

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Things are starting to expand in a beautiful way.

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I think it's an exciting time to kind of witness it, because I'm glad you, you know, gave nod there to, our pioneers, because absolutely, even, you know, if we go back in third, second, first wave therapies, there were pioneers that kind of were laughed at during those kind of phases as well. So, I'm glad you mentioned that, because we've certainly,

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You know, have…

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we have to have those giants that we step on the shoulders of to kind of go to the next level as well, so,

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Let's… let's talk then about this spirituality aspect, or the embracing of the mystical, or the unknown, even if we can't yet quantify some of it. I know there's a building body of research around this, though, that shows

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including this in your life, embracing it, whatever you want to call it, absolutely has an impact on mental health. Can you give us some high-level, kind of, ideas around this sort of, you know, concept? And why… why would someone want to go off and explore a little bit of this in their own lives?

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Absolutely, and you can think about the signs of spirituality in so many different ways. One of them is precisely what you said, that it's been shown over and over and over that individuals who embrace spirituality, whether spiritual beliefs or practices in their daily life, they have better quality of life, greater well-being. When you look at actually disease or health, it's, you know, greater recovery from disease, or even greater quality of life.

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In cancer, no matter how severe the cancer is, even if the cancer's super, super severe, if you have spirituality, your quality life is better. It also shows that there's a certain, you know, quality called spiritual health.

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Which, you know, whether you believe or not, that's whether you're spiritual or not, but spiritual health is something that can be cultivated. It's a quality similar to resilience. It's a maturity in the face of difficulty. The greater your spiritual health, the greater your quality of life.

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People who are able to overcome challenges, and where the challenges don't

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completely topple them. We all have challenges in life, and we're gonna have big challenges in life. And if you haven't had one yet, thank God, and hopefully you won't for a very long time, but the truth is, people die, hardships happen, horrible things happen in life, and

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The people who can overcome that aren't the ones with the greatest, most positive attitude, it's the ones who have that capacity, the strength, the resiliency to overcome and are able to recognize that our chip is

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you know, it's a number of different qualities. First of all, it's not forever, it is time-limited, and it's something over which you have control. And if you see it as those three things.

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It's a very, very powerful way of overcoming. So, but this is the thing. Spiritual beliefs and practices, well-being, both physical and mental.

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That's amazing. So, can we define a little bit more… you mentioned those three sort of steps, which sounded to me more like a…

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perspective-taking, cognitive kind of way of thinking about, yeah, something big that's happened that you have to deal with. What is spiritual health, though? If someone's listening in and kind of going, alright, well, I definitely want to have a look at that in my kind of, you know, pie chart of my life, how do we define that? What does that mean?

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Absolutely. And so, to be clear, spiritual… if you're spiritual, you either, you know, believe in something greater, you don't believe in something greater. There's many different ways of… that you can define spirituality. Spiritual health is a resiliency in the face of hardship, and it's also a maturity, a spiritual maturity, being able to communicate difficult emotions, being able to confront when you need to confront, being able to hear difficult news and be able to take it and actually feel your feelings.

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having coping mechanisms that you're aware of, being able to articulate the things that are most challenging for you. It's those kinds of things which are essentially emotional maturity and emotional intelligence put together, together with resiliency. And it's a concept that's very well defined and well delineated, so if someone were to go into Google spiritual health, you'll hear all about it.

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Oh, that's fantastic, because it sounds very practical when you kind of list things out like that. It does sound like, and you said, it can be learnt, so if someone wants to…

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Absolutely. In contrast to spirituality, you know, you… some people, that's a choice, and it's also learned. And, you know, and let's also define spirituality. A spirituality, a connection to something greater than oneself, whether that be to God, to Source, to the universe, to Mother Nature.

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And it could be something internal and deeply personal, or it could be something external and transcendent beyond the self. But usually it's concerned with some of the most important qualities in life, meaning, purpose, and how we live a good life.

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Amazing.

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I am thinking, then, you've got a patient in front of you, perhaps they've just received a diagnosis or something unexpected, and there's, you know, an opportunity here to kind of talk about this kind of thing, maybe without knowing what their

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you know, spiritual beliefs are. How do you go about knowing all the research, knowing this will really help them, knowing spiritual health will actually, you know, predict, perhaps, you know, their recovery or coping? How do you go about raising the idea with someone that's sitting in front of you as a client or a patient?

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Yeah, it's a great question, and you know, I feel like at this point, I've marketed my practice to be a spiritual practice, and so I often don't need to market that to anybody else. They find me, and when they don't want that, when they want to focus more on the psychological aspects of healing, the medical aspects of healing, the pharmacologic, that's all good, too. My thing is about meeting people where they're at, and being able to provide a whole array of options for healing.

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Whether that be more holistic integrative, or whether that be more traditional Western medicine. There's so many different ways to heal, and I certainly don't have a monopoly on what the right one is. I'm just there to be able to present that to people, for them to choose what is right at a given time.

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And is it sometimes just a deeper conversation in a traditional around meaning? You mentioned meaning-making and… Definitely. I don't know, purpose of life.

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Yes. Absolutely, yes. And so that's also… it's such an important point, because sometimes we think of spiritual as in spiritual and religious, and sometimes it's precisely that. And sometimes people really, really want that in their healing, and there's actually data that only 10% of psychiatrists ask patients about their mental health, but 75% of patients want to be asked.

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about their spiritual health, you know? But when it also, you know, comes to the other side, there's, you know, spirituality, there's religion, but there's also secular spirituality, and secular spirituality is existential. It's purpose and meaning. It's a connection to something greater. It's being in flow with life. It's not having any of the religious affiliation, and yet being

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deeply existential, important, and central to one's being, and by many considered spiritual, therefore. Yeah.

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I am thinking people listening in, perhaps, you know, our audience are working with clients, and maybe want to go off and explore some of this themselves before, obviously, making the offer to have these conversations. Maybe they're already having conversations with clients.

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Are there any…

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I want to use the word practical, maybe that's not the right word, but are there any ways or exercises or something that a listener could go away today after listening.

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and explore a little bit more of this. I mean, you ended up having kind of predictive psychic dreams and went off, but is there something, you know, a listener listening in could kind of go, alright, what do I do now if I'm curious about this in myself?

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Yeah, it's such a great question. So what do you do if you want to explore? There's so many ways to explore. First, if I were working with someone and they came to me, I want to explore my spiritual side, what do I do? I would first say to them, okay, I want to take a spiritual history. What was your spiritual or religious belief when you were growing up, and how has that changed over time, and why has it changed?

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Now, what do you believe about the world in a spiritual way? Do you believe that you're connected to something greater? How does that connection manifest? What would you like more of in your life? Do you go to church? Do you go to synagogue? Do you go to your mosque?

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Do you celebrate any holidays? What spiritually is important to you? Did you get married in a Catholic ceremony? You know, do you have any gurus or people that you… do you meditate? Is there secular spirituality that's a part of your life? Do you do yoga? Do you do breathwork? Have you used psychedelics? Has that connected you to God or the divine? Have you had experiences that really made you doubt how the world works or see the world anew? That you're like, how did that

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What in the world did that happen? Things that were synchronicities, magical, miracles. Do you know people who've experienced miracles?

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Do you know people who've experienced synchronicities? Have you ever had psychic connections with anybody? Psychic… so this is… these are the things that I would explore, and there's so many… so spirituality encompasses so many different things. I did an NPR episode, on precisely that. How do you start a spiritual practice?

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And there's a ton of things. The first thing would be to ask yourself these questions and journal about them, and really try to get an understanding of

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what is… what was my spiritual life? What is it now? And where would I like it to be? Is there any spiritual role models I have? And why are they my role models?

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Are there any deficits in my life that I have right now that I think or intuitively feel that spirituality can help me to expand in? And…

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Yeah, and why now? Why is now the time? And I love working, you know, with my clients and patients in this way. Ask for a sign. Say, I would like to have this change in my life, and I'd like to explore spirituality, and I would like a sign in my life as to how I should do this.

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And I want that sign to be specifically for me, and for me to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is a sign, and for something to open. Like, ask the universe for a sign, start to interact with the spiritual plateau out there, and see what that does for you and your life. You might get a sign, you might not, but you're gonna start looking and seeing the world a little bit differently.

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I love that, and I was thinking, while you were rattling all of those questions off, I'm like, thank goodness we have a transcript, so anyone listening going, I need to write down all those questions Dr. Anna just mentioned, they'll all be in the transcript. Thank goodness for AI doing that in the background. That's… yeah, all of those questions. It did make me think, because you were touching on

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you know, what did you have in your childhood? Has any of that changed? That kind of thing. It made me wonder…

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You know, is there a role here of what's gone on in childhood, developmentally, to who you are now, to questioning time in life that it comes up that could be…

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you know, traumatic childhood experiences, it may not be traumatic. But is there a link, even in the research, around the exploration of this based on age in life?

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100%, you know, I think that

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So much of what people have in their lives with respect to spirituality and religion, and even things like, you know, telepathic skills, claircognizance, clairvoyance, like being able to receive spiritual information, or, or, you know, hear, like, you know, messages from the divine.

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those things run in families, and when people have that trait, and they tell me about it, they're like, yeah, my grandmother on my father's side had that, and she was known as the mystic in the city. People would go to her for healings, or my, you know, grandfather was a rabbi, actually, and I have this healing gift. And so, these are largely genetic things. Often, they're genetic things that aren't necessarily,

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thought as such, but if you look back in the family, there are those things, there's antecedents for that, and

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Of course, in addition to the genetics, you have environmental, and you have, fam… like, cultural beliefs and family systems, all that are passed down for people to develop, or not develop, or to have ambivalent feelings about certain spiritual gifts that they have.

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So, did you notice that in yourself? Because you talked about, obviously, being able to have the dreams that were predictive, and obviously some sense. Did you find that in your own background?

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Yes, and you know, it's so interesting, because my mother told me that when I was… when we'd just come to this country, I think I was, like, 7 or 8, and I had a dream that my

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grandmother's sister was riding a train and died. That's my aunt. And actually, the day after, my grandmother, not her sister, was riding a train and had a stroke and died. And so my mother told me that I had this predictive dream, and I think that, you know, we as children have all of these capacities. And as we grow older, unless those capacities are developed.

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We are taught to fear them, and we're taught to close them. We're not… we're not taught to develop them, necessarily. And oftentimes, you have a child that's, like, you know, has precognitive abilities, parents are like, oh my god, don't ever say anything like this again. Please don't ever bring this to me, that's terrifying. What's even happening? So, it was never developed in me. My mother certainly didn't respond, you know, in, like, it was negative in any way, but it was also never developed.

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Now, in this day and age.

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parents are much more attuned to that, and there's schools now that help children. There's schools that help children see through blindfolds, be able to see with other parts of their bodies and not just their eyes. It's amazing what's happening now, and if those things are developed at an early age, the children's brains are able to develop to be open to that in the future. We have to, at an older age, redevelop that. It's much harder. It's not to say it's impossible, but oftentimes, what we as human beings do is we have those

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experience with something that will blast us open like a psychedelic. A psychedelic will remove the veil, and suddenly, boom, you see, whoa, the universe is so much more vast, and without this veil, you can know everything, you could see everything. Wow, I wish I could live without this veil. Then the psychedelic effect wears off, and you're like.

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I guess I'm back in the world with this big veil, you know? And so I hear this from my patients again and again and again, in different ways, with different, you know, words, but that's the sentiment.

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Yeah, absolutely, and just a note, everyone, don't go off and try psychedelics by yourself.

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Exactly, exactly, yeah. And also, in our country, in America, there is a legal psychedelic, and that's ketamine, and that is approved for treatment-resistant depression. So the majority of people who do this talk to me about ketamine, but there are other countries, like in South America, where things like ayahuasca and Ibogaine, et cetera, are legal, and so I've had

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many patients with whom I've worked who've done a lot of other psychedelics, which are legal in other countries.

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Yes, and here in Australia, everyone listening in, we do have some approved psychedelics for, retractory depression and things like as well, so absolutely, explore with your medical provider.

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Yeah, it's really curious, because I remember reading

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The last book that Dr. Wayne Dyer wrote before he passed was a book that he wrote called

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top of my head, Memories from Heaven, where he collected stories from his community, and it was based on his housekeeper at the time sharing about her grandchildren. She'd overheard them talking. They were very young, under the age of 5, you know, siblings.

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And they were talking about where they came from, and she'd mentioned it to Wayne, and he was like, well, I wonder if anyone else in our community… they put a call out. Lo and behold, they get hundreds of stories where parents have heard their children, generally under about the age of 5,

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Talking to each other about where they came from, and there appeared to be a bit like near-death experience recounts as well.

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like, a similarity across all these stories. I'll remember one of them, just talking to you now, where two little ones, they were… mum was obviously just, you know, in the bathroom, but they were having a bath together.

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And the little 4-year-old says to her 3-year-old sister.

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Remind me where we come from. I'm forgetting.

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And it was just this moment of, obviously, the little one telling her big sister where they came from. He titled the book Memories from Heaven, but it does sort of…

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the… and I've read similar things in near-death experiences, and people that have obviously, you know, not passed but come back here, talk about the same kind of thing, of where they came from. It appears as though it's in us.

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And I guess that's my whole point, is there is some sense that maybe, you know, we're trying to tap back into or become aware of again, because it appears as though anyone listening out there, if you have a child under the age of 5, ask them. Ask them, see what happens.

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I think that that's exactly right, and I think that young children know and they feel that, and, you know, there's been a lot of things studied in this regard. People remembering past lives, children remembering past lives, children remembering they were somebody in a past life, and remembering

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where they had a birthmark, like, very specific details of those past lives, and then that being verified. There's books written about this extensively. It's a very, you know, we're talking about paradigm shifts. It's a very different paradigm than the paradigm in which we're living. We live in, this is our world, and then we die. And maybe we have the concept of an immortal soul. That's certainly not a crazy concept in the majority of, you know, Western religions, but

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Do we come back? What is that like? Do we, you know, have… reincarnate? Do we have soul groups and soul families? And if so, how? And how do you know? And what do you… you know, there's, like, all of this,

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And it's exciting. It's exciting, and also it's confusing, and we want to know, and we want to gather information, and what control do we have, if any, over all this? That's really the question. How much of this do we control? That's amazing.

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Dr. Anna, what is your hope for the future? Perhaps, you know, we're talking about, kind of, fourth waves and what's happening and paradigm shifts. What do you hold hope, whether it's for the patients coming through the door to seek support or at a global level, what is it that, you know, drives you?

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Definitely. So, my whole profession is alleviating suffering. People come to me suffering in some way, shape, or form, whether suffering because of a transition,

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Depression, anxiety, suffering because of addiction, suffering because somebody died. A million… you know, and so there's certain things that we can control and others that we can't. We can't control that hardship will happen. People will get cancer. Well, hopefully one day they won't, maybe. One day, you know, we won't get cancer and heart disease. Ozempic is reducing that tremendously, so God bless. But…

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that we have, you know, I still see so much suffering all the time, so I want less suffering in the world. I want more joy. I want more peace. I want people to be able to tap into their hearts, open up their capacities. For, you know, we talked about this veil between the ultimate reality and our current reality. I want to figure out how to lift this veil more so, so people can see what truly is, and tap into the highest version of themselves and expanded consciousness.

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And that we can all share in that together in the mission of reducing suffering and expanding joy.

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Amazing. Dr Anna, thank you for the book that you've written. Details are below, everybody. I know you're all going to want to read that, as well as Dr Anna's links there to follow her work. It has just been wonderful to connect, you know, through our colleague that we both know together, and he's doing his wonderful work in the world as well. And just what you are doing, one of those pioneers that, you know, hopefully our

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next generations will come through, and talk about your work, and exactly what you've done out there to shift this in the psychiatry world, and certainly from a medical profession. It has been an absolute joy to listen to you today, and

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Hopefully everyone listening in might want to share with another colleague that perhaps is in the therapy space that you know might want to go off and have a read through those questions that Anna rattled off there. They'll absolutely be in the transcript so that, yeah, someone else can benefit from hearing just how spirituality can actually be of impact.

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Thank you so much, Peter. It's a pleasure, and I wish you and your audience all the very best, and reduce suffering and enhance joy for all.

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Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. We look forward to seeing you again in another episode of The Fourth Wave in Therapy.

Resources

Dr About Anna Yusim

Dr. Anna Yusim is a Board-Certified, Stanford- and Yale-educated psychiatrist and executive coach with a private practice spanning NYC, Connecticut, New Jersey, Colorado, California, and Florida. She helps high-profile clients—including Fortune 500 CEOs, Olympic athletes, A-list actors, and academic department chairs—achieve greater impact, purpose, and joy.

She is the best-selling author of Fulfilled: How the Science of Spirituality Can Help You Live a Happier, More Meaningful Life, a Clinical Assistant Professor at Yale Medical School, and Co-Founder of the Yale Mental Health & Spirituality Program.

Dr. Yusim serves as Chief Medical Affairs Officer of Conscious Health, Medical Lead for SuperMind, and Chief Psychiatrist at Privé Swiss' Brain Health & Optimal Longevity Program, alongside board roles at Being Health, Mental Health Television Network, Retreat, and Lifeboat Foundation.

She has published over 400 academic and public works on psychiatry and is a frequent media contributor, appearing on CNN, Fox News, ABC, NBC, and numerous podcasts worldwide.

Website: www.annayusim.com