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In this episode, Dr. Gina Cleo discusses the science of habit change and its profound impact on wellbeing. She shares her personal journey into habit science, emphasizing the importance of understanding how habits are formed and how they can be changed. The conversation explores the neuroscience behind habits, the role of dopamine, and practical strategies for establishing healthy habits, particularly around sleep and wellbeing. Dr. Cleo also debunks the myth of the 21-day habit formation rule and provides insights for therapists on helping clients develop new habits.

Takeaways

• Habit change is essential for wellbeing.

•  Habits are automatic behaviors triggered by cues.

•  Neural pathways in the brain are formed through repeated behaviors.

•  Motivation is a fleeting resource; habits reduce reliance on it.

•  Good quality sleep is a foundational habit for wellbeing.

•  Reducing friction makes it easier to establish new habits.

•  Habit stacking can help integrate new behaviors into daily routines.

•  Awareness of habits is crucial for change.

•  Emotional rewards enhance habit formation.

• It takes an average of 8 weeks to form a new habit.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Habit Change and Wellbeing

02:35 Understanding Habits: Definition and Neuroscience

05:44 The Link Between Habits and Wellbeing

08:55 Key Habits for Wellbeing

09:06 Establishing Sleep Habits

11:15 The Role of Dopamine in Habit Formation

13:47 Awareness and Reducing Friction in Habit Change

17:12 Strategies for Habit Stacking and Reducing Friction

19:41 The Myth of 21 Days to Form a Habit

24:13 Tips for Therapists on Habit Formation

27:45 Introducing Your Habit Blueprint Program

Keywords: habit change, wellbeing, neuroscience, motivation, dopamine, sleep, emotional regulation, habit stacking, self-control, behaviour change

Note: this is unedited.

Peta Stapleton (00:00.712)
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the fourth wave in therapy. And I have with me today a guest who I've been trying to secure for my podcast for quite a while. And you'll know why by the end of this. Now, Dr. Gina Cleo has been a bit of a colleague here at Bonn University, but exploded out in the private space. And today we're going to dive deep into that. She is a globally recognized expert in habit change. Yes, that's right, habit change. And that's what we're going to talk about today.

and the intersect with wellbeing, course. Gina is passionate about translating scientific evidence into simple, actionable strategies for your everyday life. And that's just so dear to my heart because I just want the hack out there. I just want to hear what's the fastest way to get there. And of course, based in science and evidence. So Gina is an assistant professor in her spare time here at Bond University as well, but certainly out there on the global stage sharing her own research.

and she has a brand new book, 2024, The Habit Revolution came out, all the links are below and we hope that you will run off and buy that one after our conversation, as well as some new platforms of teaching that we'll talk about as well. So Gina, thank you and welcome to The Fourth Wave in Therapy.

Dr Gina Cleo (01:19.857)
Peter, what a delight to be here with you today.

Peta Stapleton (01:22.728)
Thank you so much. I really want to start and I know some of your PhD research yourself may have been part of the jumping off board, but why did you get into habit, the science behind habit change or the whole field of how we change habits? What drew you to that?

Dr Gina Cleo (01:41.042)
look, my journey into habit science really came from a very personal place. Years ago, I found myself really struggling to maintain the healthy habits that I knew were good for me, whether was exercising regularly or eating well or just finding balance. And I realized that it wasn't a lack of knowledge. I knew what to do. You I worked as a dietitian. I was a dietitian before. I just wasn't doing it. And so that frustration really sparked my curiosity.

why is change so hard even when we really want to do it? And that question led me to do a PhD in habit change. And then since I've just been completely obsessed with understanding the science behind how we build and break habits and how that shapes our wellbeing, our identity and really our entire lives.

Peta Stapleton (02:28.272)
And if you were just for anyone listening in kind of going, okay, well, what's the definition of a habit? What do you mean by that?

Dr Gina Cleo (02:35.886)
So habit is essentially a behavior that's been repeated so many times in a consistent context that it becomes automatic. So in other words, it's something that we do without really thinking about, like brushing our teeth or reaching for our phones or putting our seatbelt on in the car. Habits are driven by triggers or cues in our environment. And then over time, they become deeply encoded in our brain's neural pathways.

And so that's why they can feel really hard to change, but also why they can be super powerful when we use them intentionally.

Peta Stapleton (03:10.078)
So when you talk about that they are deeply embedded and even at a brain level, and obviously with habitual kind of practices, whether that's, you know, a habit or some sort of other, and it could be a meditative practice for someone or something else, you know, in these therapy approaches, what is it doing in the brain? Like, how is it working in the brain that this cue that might be out in the environment, maybe that's leaving your exercise clothes on the end of your bed so you see them when you wake up, what is happening in the brain?

Dr Gina Cleo (03:37.698)
Yeah. Yeah. So basically we're creating neural pathways. are either strength creating your pathways, we're strengthening them or we're removing them. So it's called synaptic strengthening or synaptic pruning. But from a neuroscience perspective, habits are formed in the part of the brain called the basal ganglia, which is essentially involved in things like procedural memory, routine behaviors. And when we repeat a behavior in the same context,

let's say grabbing a coffee every morning on the way to work, the brain starts to create a mental shortcut and it associates getting to work with coffee. And over time, those two things essentially fuse together in our brain. And that's, you it's really exciting to understand that these pathways can be created and rewired. We're not stuck with our habits and that we can...

create strategies to change them. But essentially our brain loves associations. And that's why all of our habits are triggered by something else. They never happen just by themselves like a behavior would.

Peta Stapleton (04:42.654)
So you're in your bio and I know you're part of your passion area, your backgrounds as a dietitian. The link between habits and wellbeing and of course, know, in, if we talk about kind of this fourth wave of therapy approaches to us, that includes, you know, mood and food and health and physiological wellbeing in the body. Like what is the link between, you know, these practices that perhaps we know we should be doing? We want to create a habit around them.

longevity in life but wellness and thriving like almost that positive psychology kind of what's the link?

Dr Gina Cleo (05:19.342)
Well, I'm a big, I mean, I'm gonna have a huge bias to this, but I think that in order for us to have a life filled with wellbeing, we need to develop habits. And the reason for that is the only, if we're not using our habits, we're essentially using our willpower or our self-control. We're having to get up and remember to do certain things. We have to feel motivated to do certain things that are gonna be good for us.

The thing with motivation is it works like a muscle. It's a fleeting resource. The more you use it during the day, the more exhausted it gets. And so we run out of it. And that's why, you know, after a long, hard, emotional day, the last thing you want to come home to is salad. You want to come home to pizza and cheese and chocolate and an extra glass of wine, because we've just depleted our willpower or self-control all day. And the only way to not use or depend on willpower is to use our habits.

And I know that no matter how tired or exhausted or hungry you are, you will always put your seatbelt on in the car because it's a habit. But if you're tired and exhausted and hungry, you may not do things like moving your body or the meditation that you wanted to do because that takes so much willpower. And so that's why creating these automations or habits is really, it's the magical formula to be able to live well and do it consistently.

Peta Stapleton (06:44.816)
And I'm imagining anyone listening because it's happening for me right now. I'm thinking I want automation. I want these things to be on autopilot because, you know, it sounds like, like you said, it's the magic formula. It's the magic.

Dr Gina Cleo (06:51.598)
Yeah.

Peta Stapleton (06:58.706)
been here that if you get these things right like putting on the seatbelt or you know brushing your teeth that kind of thing then it seems like maybe some of these behaviors I could create a habit around are going to obviously impact me positively as far as my know well-being my general health. So what do you suggest or what have you noticed in the research? Are the behaviors before we get into how to create them what are the behaviors I think that might be needed?

needed to kind of get us down this road? Like what are the ones out there that you see in the research? Yeah.

Dr Gina Cleo (07:34.296)
The ones that help our wellbeing? Yeah, I mean, it's funny with this question because I was asked recently to write a book on ADHD and habits. And when I started looking at the research, I'm like, this is going to be so boring because it's all the same things we hear all the time. Sleep well, eat well, move more, get some sunshine, et cetera, et cetera. But it's about actually doing them. And it's the same thing with our general wellbeing. I think the most underrated habit is getting good quality sleep.

So I would say that is probably number one. And then there's a few really fun ones like getting 10 minutes of sunshine first thing in the morning. It's eating lots of veggies. It's staying hydrated. It's being connected with people that we love. It's moving our bodies. It's all those things. It's balance and it's self care, whatever that looks like for each individual.

Peta Stapleton (08:26.48)
So anyone listening might be kind of going, okay, so I have heard of these things before. Definitely the sleep one, know, less time on screens, that kind of thing. Obviously eat the right foods, move our bodies, sunshine. And they all sound great, social connection, whatever. But if listening to those again, someone's kind of going, okay, so there's nothing magic in what I'm supposed to be doing here. It's just that there might be barriers to doing them. And I'm guessing that's where the...

Dr Gina Cleo (08:36.174)
and

Peta Stapleton (08:55.56)
habit bit comes in. So if we talked about sleep, because I do think sleep, I'm with you. Sleep is to me, you get that right, lots of other things fall into place, even with mood. Let's talk about sleep. If someone was listening and kind of going, all right, well, what kind of habit is going to work for me here with sleep? What are the top tips that could put this on automation?

Dr Gina Cleo (09:06.424)
Mm-hmm.

Dr Gina Cleo (09:18.446)
So one of the best things that research shows that you can do for your sleep is going to bed and waking up at the same time every day. And yes, that includes weekends as well. I have become relentless with my routine. My friends actually bought me one of those front door mats that said, welcome, please leave by 9pm because they know they're going to be kicked out by 9pm. So going to bed, getting up at the same time. And then there are sacrifices, but I personally think they're worth it. And it's things like reducing alcohol intake.

Peta Stapleton (09:36.764)
I love it.

Dr Gina Cleo (09:47.98)
Reducing your caffeine intake, not having a big heavy meal in the evening, especially a meal that's filled with like red meat. Reducing your sugar intake in the evenings. Staying off screens an hour before you go to bed. Stretching, like stretching, meditation, having a calming tea, a warm shower, all these things help.

Peta Stapleton (10:09.118)
So are they like routine? know, our brains do like routine and we do that when we have, you know, little children, when we go through the bed bath bottle routine. Is that the same for us that it doesn't matter necessarily if you go to bed at 10 p.m. and wake up at six, as long as that's regular or the routine of it's 9 p.m. turn off the screens, now have my cup of tea. Is it the routine that's really important here?

Dr Gina Cleo (10:33.538)
Yeah, that's exactly right. Because it starts, as soon as you start your bedtime routine, it triggers your brain to going, it's bedtime. And so you start producing more melatonin, you start to wind down, your brain activity starts to slow. And so the start of the routine actually helps us get a better night's sleep.

Peta Stapleton (10:53.478)
Why do you think adults then, because it does seem like, you know, as a parent, and I'm a parent or two, that we do routines with kids, we notice that that keeps them more settled, you know, they expect what's next, consistency. Why do you think adults resist routine when clearly the research seems to be showing us that we should be following it?

Dr Gina Cleo (11:15.086)
I think because there is dopamine that's competing for our attention and our brain, something like scrolling on our phone or watching one more episode of Netflix or having a glass of wine or eating a big dessert, all these things give us dopamine. And that's a lot more exciting than having a chamomile tea and a warm shower, even though I think those two are exciting.

They don't give us as much dopamine as those other things. so naturally we gravitate to pleasure and we avoid pain. And in this case, dopamine is the pleasure.

Peta Stapleton (11:50.106)
And tell us a little bit more about dopamine than as a neurotransmitter. it is, isn't it implicated in motivation and things like that as well? So what happening when we're on a screen or we've got a bit of FOMO because we want to watch our last episode.

Dr Gina Cleo (11:58.435)
That's right.

Dr Gina Cleo (12:04.128)
Yeah, exactly. Dopamine is part of our reward system. It navigates our levels of motivation and essentially is also involved in reward learning. And so when our brain notices that something's giving us dopamine, it feels good and our brain goes, well, we should do this again. And so that's why we stay scrolling. We stay watching. We stay drinking and eating because it feels good for our brain and anything else doesn't feel as good.

And when we've got dopamine going through our bodies, there's a sense of energy. We feel there's an excitement there. There's all these like positive experiences. And then when we put that away, there's a bit of a lull that happens and that dip feels, I call it grisly, but it's kind of like unmotivated, a bit tired, don't really feel, not really interested in anything. It's this kind of like slight melancholic that we experience.

And it's really about the emotional regulation of going through that without trying to seek another hit of dopamine. If we can do that, then that's really the power of focusing on short-term outcomes. Sorry, get it, long-term outcomes rather than these short-term rewards.

Peta Stapleton (13:21.64)
So is it enough to kind of, anyone listening might be kind of going, okay, so now I'm aware of what might be happening when I'm like, no, it's nine o'clock, I'm gonna turn that off and go through a routine now to get ready for bed. Is awareness enough and being able to like name, you know, whether it's like, that's just my dopamine, it's having a bit of a dip now, but I know what's going on. Like, does that help?

Dr Gina Cleo (13:47.084)
Yes, I think it helps a lot. The awareness is so great. The other thing that really helps is reducing friction. So make the environment easier for you to do that. Whether it's something on your phone that automatically shuts down the apps at 9 p.m. or a little alarm, that's a 9 p.m. alarm that goes, well, that's time to turn off technology. And we also want to celebrate these little wins that you do. So every time you do turn off your screens at 9 p.m., you could tick.

that you've done that on like a little habit tracker, which you can get in paper-based or app-based ones. And what that does is it replaces that dopamine. So when you give yourself a tick, you get a little head of dopamine and then your brain goes, wow, turning the screens off at 9pm felt good. We should do that again. It's very similar to when you give a child a gold star for doing their chores and they feel awesome for it they want to do it again. We don't grow out of reward learning as adults. So give yourself a tick. It really makes a difference.

Peta Stapleton (14:44.574)
And can we build up to have like after I have 10 ticks, I can then go to the day spa. Can we have a bigger reward?

Dr Gina Cleo (14:50.286)
I think you can set whatever rules you want, whatever it takes.

Peta Stapleton (14:55.196)
Yeah, I think that's a really good point because, you know, we keep kind of referring back to children here, but you just, think you just summarised it. We don't grow out of that reward based kind of learning or need as an adult. And of course we may be getting it unconsciously through, you know, scrolling on a phone or catching up on other people's lives through that or watching a show. We're still doing it to ourselves. We just don't realise that that's exactly what we're doing.

Dr Gina Cleo (15:24.224)
Exactly right. Yeah. I think it's also really valuable to notice when and where you're doing whatever habit that you'd like to change. So say it's phone scrolling. Oftentimes people scroll first thing in the morning, last thing before they go to bed and really every six minutes throughout the whole day. noticing when it's happening. So you might think, okay, I've just reflexively picked up my phone. What's going on here? Am I bored? Am I tired? Am I stuck on a word?

And noticing that it's actually the procrastination, it's the lack of emotional regulation that's triggered you to do that. And just sitting with that discomfort can be really powerful and going, I don't need that dopamine right now. What I actually need is connection, or I just need to get up and have a little break and I'm going to go make a cup of tea instead. So that awareness is so, powerful.

Peta Stapleton (16:14.982)
And we do know even from the therapy kind of fields that awareness is the first step to any behaviour change that you actually have to acknowledge and aware. And we do that in lots of other kind of therapy approaches is by actually saying what's going on for us. So you're absolutely right that awareness can lead to change. And as we're talking, you know, sleep and other things. So tell, I'm curious because I think it's the next question that comes to mind.

All right, so we can potentially set up these triggers, routines, you you've mentioned a couple like, you know, apps that will close down things on your phone, an alarm that goes off that sort of lets you know, hey, you've got an hour before bedtime. What are some other ones that you notice come up? Maybe it's in the food, healthy eating space or exercise. What are other cues that anyone listening could kind of go off after this and actually action?

Dr Gina Cleo (17:12.782)
I mean, this is very dependent on people's goals, but, so, okay, I can tell you what a few of the things that have worked for me. I know that I will always go for the easiest thing, right? Like I'm, I'm a busy person and I love a good convenience, like most people. And so if I do my grocery shop, say over weekends, I like to go to the farmer's markets. If I have everything nicely chopped up, it's in the fridge, it's ready to go. Then that means that I'm going to eat healthier 100%.

during the week. If I sign up to a Pilates class where I get fined, if I don't go, I will go religiously. It's a $10 fine. And I'm like, on principle, I will not pay that fine because I've already paid for the class. And then they charge you on top of that. Or if I've got somebody that I've said that I will go with, I will be there no matter what. So there are, guess, these things that we can put in place.

which are self-binding in a way, but also they reduce friction and they help to facilitate it to make it the easiest option or the most convenient thing to do or the thing that we, I guess the thing that we will do because it's our values. It's my value to always show up when I say that I'll show up. And so I'm going to do that even though I really want to stay in bed on a cold morning.

Peta Stapleton (18:33.66)
And it really sounds like what you are saying that having less friction makes this much easier that if we were to start to view habits and habit change and these triggers as making life easier, not harder, I think that's like an easier place to come from that the brain kind of goes, okay, this is actually going to be easier in the long run.

Dr Gina Cleo (18:51.51)
Yeah.

Dr Gina Cleo (18:55.682)
Definitely. are so many mornings. I don't feel like working out and one, you know, I never depend on motivation. Cause I'm like, I know that when I get to the gym, that's when my motivation starts. doesn't start before I'm there. So I have to actually start a workout and motivation then comes along. This is a common myth that we need motivation to start, you know, what we're doing. But what I'll often think is I have a big day today and I'd really like to be productive. And for me to do that.

It means to maximize that potential, I need to move my body. And so I will do it because I really value being productive. And again, it's just linking what matters to you the most with what you need to do. And I find that that gives people the greatest boost in, all right, let's get up and go.

Peta Stapleton (19:41.202)
Yeah, that's so cool. So my next question that comes to mind is very much and we might have to unpack a myth here. How many days does it take from the research? Because I think there's a lot of myths that go around of how long I have to keep doing something before it might become a little bit automatic or autopilot or the trigger absolutely works. What are we talking about here?

Dr Gina Cleo (19:53.251)
you

Dr Gina Cleo (20:04.778)
Most people would have thought or heard that it takes 21 days to create a new habit and that absolutely is a myth. There is no scientific evidence to prove that whatsoever. Unfortunately, the answer is it depends, which I hate giving, but it does depend. It depends on the complexity of the habit, essentially. A really easy habit. the latest research found two groups of people, one group they asked to wash their hands every day, the other group they asked to go to the gym regularly.

And the hand washers took just two weeks for that, hand washing habit to become fully automatic. The gym go is on the other hand, took seven months to completely automate that behavior. Getting to the gym has a lot more complexity than washing your hands. It requires time, motivation for you to get changed, et cetera. Whereas washing your hands is, it's a fairly simple thing to do.

The same with another study found that people who are asked just to have a glass of water with breakfast took about two weeks again to develop that compared with another group that were asked to do sit ups in the morning that took them 254 days. So again, like a good chunk of the year for that to become a habit. The average time. So if you were to work on an average for health behaviors, it's about eight weeks. So work on a two month.

Peta Stapleton (21:14.652)
Well, OK.

Dr Gina Cleo (21:27.854)
like timeframe. And I think it's a daily habit. Yeah. And I think it's important to keep that in mind because what I often find is people will be ticking off their habit tracker and they get to 21 days and they're like, this still doesn't feel automatic. I'm a failure. I'm not doing this very well. I'm just not someone who can develop habits when it's not true. It's actually the myth that's completely derailed them, not the fact that they are building that habit every day. It's, it's a

Peta Stapleton (21:29.15)
that's a daily habit that you're... Yeah. Okay.

Dr Gina Cleo (21:55.986)
thinking out a brain that happens essentially you're strengthening the neural pathway every time you do the habit. just keep on keeping on.

Peta Stapleton (22:04.52)
Do we know where that 21 day thing came from? Because absolutely that is that common myth out there.

Dr Gina Cleo (22:07.106)
My goodness, yes. A study in the 1960s with a facial reconstruction surgeon and the surgeon found that it took roughly three weeks for his patients not to get a fright every time they looked in the mirror because they had a new face. So he was like, well, it must take three weeks for neuroplasticity. That's three weeks to change a habit. And it has gone through the generations this myth has lived on. I always say to people,

If you hear your personal trainer say to you, only takes 21 days, punch them in the face for me.

Peta Stapleton (22:41.416)
Love it, you heard it here first everyone, we wanna hear them. But I think we have to correct this moving forward because it has sustained throughout the ages, this 21 day thing. I had no idea where it came from. I knew though that it was a myth and really I'd heard other averages that were around 70 to 80 days. But the eight week I think is, it's how long we run clinical trials for a lot of the time in therapy is an eight week, 10 week.

because yeah, we're getting sort of, you know, some other habit going in a therapy sense. So that makes total sense that, yeah, if we kind of stick more to that two to three months, you've got a much better, yeah.

Dr Gina Cleo (23:15.662)
Yeah.

Dr Gina Cleo (23:19.948)
Yes.

Absolutely. The latest research that found that two month average was a study as a meta analysis that was published in December 2024. Prior to that, the research showed that it was an average of 66 days, but that was only based on one study. And so the meta analysis is really sort of the most up to date research. So yeah, eight to 10 weeks is what I like to work with.

Peta Stapleton (23:46.038)
That's good, it's going to change my whole whole approach to my next Pilates venture. I love it. So if we have anyone, Gina, listening in, who's a therapist working with clients, and it could be that they want them to do their homework from therapy or a certain practice that could be, know, a somatic based body therapy or something else. And obviously,

Dr Gina Cleo (23:51.102)
good, yes!

Peta Stapleton (24:13.616)
Homework is hard for clients because they might think of school and resist it. Are there any tips that you could give therapists listening in that are working with people as clients and that could come from your own background as a dietitian as well? What do you think are good suggestions or questions to explore, know, helping our clients learn and understand this?

Dr Gina Cleo (24:37.282)
think one of the really powerful strategies to use with creating any new habit really is stacking the habit that you'd like that person to create with something that they're already doing in their life. And that again reduces the need for willpower or motivation. So we were trying to lean on structure, not willpower. And so habits stacking would look like, you know, after I brush my teeth, I'm going to do two minutes of deep breathing.

Or I know for me, I do a thing where when my head hits the pillow at night, I think of one thing that I'm grateful for. And that's just a very simple gratitude practice. So these things that we're trying to get our clients to do, try to link it with something that they're already doing consistently in their life, and then get them to tick off on a habit tracker. And when they're ticking off, excuse me, sorry, Peter.

Peta Stapleton (25:33.01)
Time to drink some water.

Dr Gina Cleo (25:35.788)
Drink some water, yes. When they're ticking off their habit on their habit tracker, I would encourage them to just have a moment where they're having a positive experience emotionally. And that might be, I didn't really want to do that today, but I did. And I'm really proud of myself for doing that because emotional rewards are the most powerful rewards when it comes to behavior change. And so that tick is great for dopamine, but the moment when you're sitting with it and going, well done you, that's going to really

I guess create the habit quicker and make it stronger in someone's life.

Peta Stapleton (26:10.43)
That's a great tip and I guess something to take away for all of us that we still respond in the same way children do to praise and self praise can be as strong as well as giving it to other people that have that moment of kind of leaning and feeling into, I did a good job, like that was good, that was hard, I did it, whatever it might be. Yeah, that's a really good reminder. Yeah.

Dr Gina Cleo (26:29.848)
Yeah.

Dr Gina Cleo (26:33.184)
Exactly right. Or even having the, I guess, the empathy or the validation of going, Hey, this was a really hard week and you still managed to do two days out of seven. And I think that's fantastic because last week you had done nothing and you know, we're still starting here. Also, think reminding people that changing our habits is very much a process of two steps forward, one step back. It's not a matter of if you'll fall. It's a matter of when.

and having strategies for those days when someone's too busy, too unwell, too whatever it is, to be able to get back on track and do so quickly. And that is really what differentiates the people that succeed to the people that just fall off the wagon completely.

Peta Stapleton (27:17.07)
fantastic. I hope everyone listening in might have gained a couple of little tips that they might be able to take away either for themselves in their own life or certainly children that we might be you know having our little reward charts on the fridge but have our own as well and even for our clients. Jenna I know that you've got a program out now which is for anybody to access. Can you tell us a little bit about that in case any of our listeners really want to be a bit more supported in this process?

Dr Gina Cleo (27:45.902)
Absolutely. So I've got a program called Your Habit Blueprint. And as you say, Peter, it's for anybody who's interested in learning how to create new habits, how to break old ones, why our self-control doesn't work and what to do instead. It's all about how to get back up from setbacks. There's a bit of neuroscience in there. And it's very much me hand holding you and coaching you throughout the whole course.

There's also a monthly live Q &A with me. So it's really one of the only ways that people can jump on and talk to me directly. So there's a few people in that and it was just such an amazing group. So please do jump on there, say hello. I love to connect with people.

Peta Stapleton (28:25.074)
That's amazing. And we'll make sure all the links are below everybody. So if you do want to go off and Gina is in a great demand these days around the world. So it is really hard to actually connect and get her specialty advice in this area. So if you do want to and with the background as a dietitian, if you want any of those tips and tricks, this is the place to go. So link is below everybody and I encourage you to explore that further. Gina, it's just been a joy. I've even got a few ideas running around in my head at the moment about, you know, my own habits and things like that.

Dr Gina Cleo (28:53.534)
Aw yeah.

Peta Stapleton (28:54.65)
So it's just been wonderful to learn a little bit more and certainly what the research and the science says and what it's doing in our brain. It's not just something that we're doing that makes us feel good in the long run, but the research is certainly changing how we understand habits in general. That's so cool. Gina, how can people connect and just follow you out in the world?

Dr Gina Cleo (29:10.253)
Yeah.

Dr Gina Cleo (29:19.758)
You can find me on socials at Dr. Gina Cleo or jump on my website, which is drginacleo.com. I will reply myself to every email. There is no AI or bot situation going on. No, not that hack. So please do come and say hello.

Peta Stapleton (29:34.074)
Not that hack. No. That's amazing. And I encourage you to do that, everybody. Thank you, Gina, for all your time and your wisdom and of course, advancing this space in the research area. It's just wonderful to keep up to date.

Dr Gina Cleo (29:47.374)
Thanks so much, Peter. It was wonderful speaking with you as well.

Peta Stapleton (29:52.178)
Thanks everyone, we'll see you again in another episode of the fourth wave in therapy.

Dr Gina Cleo's Free Habit Course: habitchangeinstitute.mykajabi.com/masterclass

And Book, ‘The Habit Revolution’: www.drginacleo.com/book