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In this engaging conversation, Dr. Peta Stapleton interviews Dr. Lorne Brown, exploring the intersection of acupuncture and tapping therapies like EFT. They discuss how emotions are stored in the body, the importance of daily tapping for emotional regulation, and the impact of cosmetic procedures on acupoints. The conversation delves into specific acupoints, their significance, and how understanding these can enhance the effectiveness of tapping therapies. In this enlightening conversation, Lorne Brown and Dr. Peta Stapleton delve into the intricate relationship between acupuncture, EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques), and emotional health. They explore how tapping therapies can facilitate emotional release, the importance of understanding acupuncture points, and the potential contraindications in therapy. The discussion emphasizes the integration of EFT and acupuncture for a holistic approach to healing, highlighting the significance of staying present with emotions during the process.

Takeaways

• Emotions can be stored in the body, affecting physical health.
• Chinese medicine provides a comprehensive understanding of emotional storage.
• Daily tapping can help maintain emotional and physical balance.
• Acupoints can be affected by cosmetic procedures like Botox.
• Understanding the names and functions of acupoints enhances tapping effectiveness.
• Tapping sends vibrational signals through the body's energy channels.
• The flow of qi is essential for health and pain-free living.
• Preventative care is a key principle in Chinese medicine.
• Tapping can help regulate emotional responses and trauma.
• Each acupoint has specific emotional and physical implications. The rent channel helps release unspoken emotions.
• Tapping on specific points can alleviate emotional tension.
• Understanding acupuncture points enhances the effectiveness of EFT.
• Contraindications in tapping therapies are often cautionary rather than prohibitive.
• Tapping can support the body's natural energy flow.
• Staying present with emotions is crucial for effective healing.
• EFT is not about feeling better but about feeling authentically.
• Integrating EFT with acupuncture can deepen therapeutic outcomes.
• Emotions trapped in the body can lead to disease.
• Practitioners should explore further education in emotional aspects of Chinese medicine.

 Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Dr. Lorne Brown

01:39 Exploring the Intersection of Acupuncture and Tapping Therapies

05:07 Understanding Emotional Storage in the Body

10:21 The Importance of Daily Tapping for Regulation

12:22 Impact of Cosmetic Procedures on Acupoints

15:09 Naming Acupoints and Their Significance

18:42 Deep Dive into Specific Acupoints

22:54 Exploring Emotional Release Through Acupuncture

25:02 Understanding the Connection Between Tapping and Emotional Health

29:08 Addressing Contraindications in Tapping Therapies

34:02 Integrating EFT and Acupuncture for Holistic Healing

39:03 The Importance of Staying Present with Emotions

Keywords: EFT, acupuncture, tapping therapies, emotional health, Traditional Chinese Medicine, energy psychology, health and wellness, Dr. Lauren Brown, Dr. Peta Stapleton, integrative health, EFT, acupuncture, emotional health, tapping therapy, energy healing, mental health, trauma release, holistic healing, Chinese medicine, emotional release

Note: this is unedited.

Dr Peta Stapleton (00:01.058)
Welcome back everybody. I am thrilled to have with me today Dr. Lorne Brown. Now we were just talking off air for such a long time that we said we better hit record because we were just chatting about everything and I know that you're going to absolutely enjoy this interview. Now just by way of brief introduction and we'll get right into it. Dr. Lorne Brown is the Clinical Director of AccuBalance Wellness Center in the beautiful Vancouver, Canada and also the founder of Healthy Seminars.

Lorne Brown (00:10.315)
you

Dr Peta Stapleton (00:29.902)
as well as the Integrative Fertility Symposium. Now, here's a little known fact that I didn't know. Lorne actually had a whole career as a chartered professional accountant. We might talk about that later. But he put a real tap on it. After doing that, and apparently that was sparked a little bit by maybe he might like to do medicine, but ended up in business and accounting, I guess came back to the first true love.

Lorne Brown (00:42.443)
We'll tap on it.

Dr Peta Stapleton (00:58.038)
and did his Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine at Vancouver International College of Traditional Chinese Medicine. And so has since gone on and trained in things like energy psychology, of course, EFT, PsyK, which I actually learned many, many years ago, neuro-linguistic program. The list goes on. But as you can see, it's sort of more fourth wave and certainly coming back to some of those those roots. So we are absolutely going to dive into in this conversation.

the intercept between acupuncture and some of these tapping therapies. So EFT, of course, which I researched, but there's certainly other tapping modalities. Lorne, thank you so much for your time.

Lorne Brown (01:39.179)
I'm so glad to be talking with you, Pita, and I had the pleasure of having you on my podcast, so it's nice to be on the other side and have this conversation with you.

Dr Peta Stapleton (01:48.224)
I'm so excited to actually kind of dive deep just because you're the man with the knowledge and a lot of obviously papers that we write, but you know, conversations we have with practitioners and therapists about EFT or even thought field therapy. Any of these tapping on acupuncture kind of sometimes does come back to that question of, okay, well, how does it work? How do these tapping therapies work? And of course, at the foundation of all of that are the principles of

acupuncture. That's obviously your training and you you've since dove into some of those tapping therapies as well. But how do you how do you see these two things kind of interconnecting or aligning like if we're treating physical or emotional kind of symptomology and we've got this acupuncture system in the body. Do you want to just go for gold here and just tell us everything?

Lorne Brown (02:43.851)
That's good. Well, you know, they're are aligned because they both have this foundational principle that your emotions your experiences can get stored into your body so the body has a physical and energetic system so the channel system or the marooning system and what's really interesting about Chinese medicine because you know we hear about the great authors and researchers, you know, some will say your issues are

get stuck in your tissues, the body keeps the score. Well, Chinese medicine thousands of years ago documented how this happens and they have a whole deep layer of channel systems. So the most superficial is called the sinew system. And this is where if you have emotional experience or excessive emotions and you don't get to metabolize them, right, the alchemy doesn't happen, then they get stored.

and it can go deeper and it can go into what's called divergent channels and then it can go into the joints. The question is, well, why would the acupuncture system, why is the body storing this in my upper traps? Why is it showing up in my shoulder and my joints? Why is this? It's because if this emotional blockage gets to the organs, it could kill you. So the whole process in Chinese medicine is to keep the body alive and there's all these defense systems, different levels.

in channel systems. And these energies are meant to be processed and moved through us. And they're not meant to get to the organ system. And so, you know, when you hear the modern science saying, you know, the body keeps the score, we're seeing that transgenerational trauma gets passed down. We're seeing that our emotions are stuck in our tissues. The physiology and how the anatomy of the bodies understood the map of the terrain from Chinese medicine perspective.

talks about this in a very detailed, comprehensive level. And so we're putting up armor to protect ourselves. And so that's why we get these little gummies in our muscles and joints and all these little sore spots. So the emotions get trapped in our bodies. really do. And Chinese medicine has a beautiful system to explain why it does and then what do you need to help get it out of the system.

Dr Peta Stapleton (05:07.83)
So then the acupuncture system of acupoints that we talk about in EFT or tapping that, you know, some of the research that's come out in the last sort of five to 10 years on the primovascular system and tracer dyes being injected and showing that these things coagulate at these acupuncture points. Is that system, because you're talking about the layers of defense, is that more at the surface or is that?

deeper in the body? Because when we're actually tapping on like an acupoint, so say that under the eye, side of the eye, whatever it might be, where, how deep is that in the body?

Lorne Brown (05:46.357)
Yeah, so the sinew system, so that's the first stage of defense when we have an experience, it tightens and creates tension around that. And a lot of these sinew channels, they go deeper into the main wording system, which most people are familiar with, right? But a lot of them are found on the face, right? These sinew channels, they go to, to the points. So when you're tapping, for example, under the eye, that's stomach two.

Right? And that point is on the stomach channel, but if you look at a textbook of the stomach channel in the sinew, the musculature, you can see where it maps across the body. And so when you tap on this, you're harmonizing the spleen system or basically digestion and digestion of emotions, for example. When you're on the inner eyebrow point, right? That's called bladder two, you yow. And that's about...

calming subconscious fear and relieves tension. And a lot of these explanations come from a medical doctor who went and trained in Chinese medicine, Dr. Hamid Montekob, who's written a book on this and he has courses on this where he talks about the subconscious aspect of the tapping points that we're using. And so when you look at the superficial systems like the bladder channel, that runs up the neck. So we think of, you know, when you get in the occiput, in the upper trap, all that, and going down your back and spine,

there's an overlap of the bladder system and the gallbladder system. And so when we do the side of the eye, you're at gallbladder one, right? And so you're hitting acupuncture points and you're sending a vibrational signal through the senior channels also into the main channels.

Dr Peta Stapleton (07:31.534)
So tell me, I want to check that what we're writing about in our EFT academic papers is actually correct. So we are talking about that that tapping technique converts to an electrical signal, physoelectricity being a descriptor there, but that the transductor that moves that signal through and perhaps maybe affects the amygdala in the brain or other areas of the body or cortisol levels is being, the semiconductor there being collagen.

Is that correct or are we, do we need more information?

Lorne Brown (08:04.126)
Well, you know, there's the terrain and then there's a map. And so you gave a beautiful map description of the train from a very Western perspective. And then Chinese medicine has their map, but we don't want to confuse the map for the train. We're both talking about the same body, but we're using different language. so the answer is yes, it's both. When somebody's tapping on stomach two, we know where this channel goes in an acupuncture. When we put a needle into that point or we use a magnet,

or we use our finger or we use moxibustion heat, it's all about stimulating that point. And so when you're tapping, you're sending information into that channel. And so what you described is what they knew 2000 years ago, but they didn't have the language or the science to explain it from that, because that train didn't exist 2000 years ago. Sorry, the train existed, that map didn't exist. So I can't say that's what's happening from what Chinese medicine thinks. I would say,

Yes to both because you're seeing it, you're mapping it, you're researching it. And remember, this channel system, the sinew or the muscle channel system is when we're saying sinews, muscles, tendons, fascia. So that's what we're saying when we're talking about that system. And that's the first set of defense for trauma in the body. Remember, we don't want it in the heart. We don't want it in the actual organ system.

that it can get there, but that's a much serious condition, right? And we know chronic stress, you can get night tension, all these aches and pains, but you could end up with cardiovascular disease. It could get into the actual lung organ system and the heart organ system.

Dr Peta Stapleton (09:49.142)
Yeah, so it is probably even more so vital and important that this message of just daily tapping as a regulation activity, which is something where we're very kind of pro, because even just tapping for daily regulation is going to have an accumulation effect, isn't it? And I'm understanding that if that's that body's first offense, and we're constantly tap and breathe, just five minutes walking down the hall, driving in the car or whatever, we're keeping the body at least

somewhere towards some equilibrium.

Lorne Brown (10:21.077)
Yeah, that's the goal, to keep it in harmony, balance the yin and yang, keep it in right relationships. These are all terms that we use in Chinese medicine. And so yes, that's why qigong or tai chi, you're moving, breathing. Qigong has to have three components that I was taught, has to have intention, it has to have breath and movement. And that's qigong, and when you're qigong and you're stretching, these marines are bringing stretch, or you're tapping on the channel. everything's about, if I can simplify it,

In Chinese medicine, there's an expression, and I can't say it in Chinese, but there is, you know, there's a beautiful expression, and it kind of translates into when the qi does not flow freely, smoothly, there is pain, and disease will manifest. And when qi flows freely, there is no pain, there's health. And so if you're tapping daily, you're continually helping the qi move through your body because that's what creates health and longevity. And when it stagnates,

you'll know because it hurts, it doesn't feel good. And to put this in just real life situations, most of us have hiked. And if you're going hiking, you would not go and fill up your water bottle from a pond, a stagnant pond, because the water doesn't move and the water's not moving, it can become disease manifest. You'd go and look for where the water's rapidly moving, that's how you fill your water. So that's what we mean by chi flow. If you have circulation and chi flow and chi and blood move together, energy and blood,

then you're gonna have no pain and health. And if you're having pain, then that area has a stagnation. And so I would say yes, tapping daily, because Chinese medicine is about prevention, right? What's that expression? An ounce of prevention is worth a lot more than a pound of cure. So I think the superior doctors were paid historically when you were well, right? And lost the fee. And then you lose, if you're not well, you lose the fee. And or there's other expressions that the,

Dr Peta Stapleton (12:09.038)
Well, we need to bring that one back.

Lorne Brown (12:16.659)
know, the average doctor treats the disease, the superior doctor prevents the disease.

Dr Peta Stapleton (12:22.124)
Yeah, amazing. I love that analogy of the water that is absolutely so true about just the body needing movement as well. I want to ask a left of center question because I get asked this question and you just said a lot of those kind of acupoints are in the face and we obviously use quite a few of those points in the tapping therapies. Often I'm asked and I don't know the answer to this. What happens with an

point if someone has used Botox in the face and perhaps there's you a reason for that or indeed they've had surgeries anywhere on the body or indeed in the face where maybe you know things have been cut out. Does that affect do either of those two things affect acupoints and the efficacy of traditional acupuncture or even tapping?

Lorne Brown (13:16.043)
Sure, so I will share what I think and my clinical experience. I don't know, because I don't know if anybody's done research on it to say I know. But soon as you have surgery, you can cut or damage the channel system so we can have scars and that affects chief flow. So we already know when there's scars on the muscles that that does impact chief flow. So I would say yes. I know clinically when I...

Dr Peta Stapleton (13:24.59)
Yeah.

Lorne Brown (13:44.043)
treat people and say somebody has two really bad shoulders and one they've done a few cortisone shots and the other one they didn't, it seems like it doesn't respond as easy or quickly. They need a lot more treatments if they've had a lot of steroid injections into an area. So it's doing something to the tissue. So I just know clinically, somebody's had a lot of steroid shots. Not that we can't help, but it's not like you would expect if the tissue had never been treated that way.

And so Botox probably, again, I can't say I know, but if you're not getting movement there, then maybe it has impacted it. So it's an interesting thing to think about. It's possible. Just like if you pierce a body part, you're stimulating an acupuncture point. So there is some stimulation constantly happening in that area. But you can still live long with a Botoxed face, right?

Dr Peta Stapleton (14:35.896)
You will.

Dr Peta Stapleton (14:41.954)
Yeah, totally. And I'm sure we actually have had people in our clinical trials over the 20 years where they have been precedent, still perhaps had outcomes from tapping. So not something we tracked, but yeah, might make for a curious kind of clinical trial down the track. We had a chat off air before we came on. And I really would like to sort of unpack maybe from an EFT point of view about

Lorne Brown (14:42.773)
Yeah.

Dr Peta Stapleton (15:09.62)
the traditional name of the acupoint. We obviously use things like start of the eyebrow, start of the eye, under the eye, but we had a chat about perhaps naming them for what they actually are known for. Can you tell me, one, I want to go through what, and you went through a couple on the face before, but what might be the rationale for knowing and even including that in our language when we are tapping and maybe directing someone we're working with?

Lorne Brown (15:27.423)
Yeah, we can go through them. Yeah.

Lorne Brown (15:38.527)
Yeah. Well, and it's reason it's interesting to share when I first started learning tapping, they would say like side of the eye. And I was like, I wonder if that's Goblet of Wonder Tai Yang. Cause there's two points really close there. Right. I mean, you're hitting them both actually, when you tap with two fingers. So, so I listed them, I have a list and I list them both cause I'm like, you're tapping them both, but I don't know what the founder really wanted. Right. so, so that's why it's nice if you want to be precise.

Dr Peta Stapleton (15:52.386)
Rock.

Lorne Brown (16:07.979)
then you can have even more, if you believe in intention as well, you can be more accurate. Because when I see people tap the collarbone point, I'm assuming it's kidney 27, which is really medial, and just below the collarbone. But I see people down here, like on the chest, way down, these are also kidney points, right? And stomach points are here. But they're here, or they're over here near stomach 13. So if you're,

Dr Peta Stapleton (16:32.538)
for.

Lorne Brown (16:36.423)
If you're really left brain, you'd be like, where am I tapping, right? Because there's a lot of points here, right? So you could be more intentional.

Dr Peta Stapleton (16:42.051)
Yes.

Wow. So let's walk through them then. So anyone listening, and obviously this will show up in the transcript. So start of the eye for us in EFT.

Lorne Brown (16:52.523)
Yeah, so you yow bladder to and I'm gonna share with you know, what's in the books but again Hamid Monta Cobb Has really done a nice part of work of bringing in what the subconscious aspect the emotional So these aren't my these aren't my words so much as I want to respect where I heard this from So I'm in Monta Cobb who has taught courses on this and written books So he says, know the bladder channel. So first of all any point in the face

connects a little bit more to the Shen in the mind, because the Shen is the spirit, I think. it's just because location-wise, that's where we're tapping, right? But also the bladder channel is what's called the Tai Yang. I'm not gonna do this for each point, but I wanted to give one deep. It's the Tai Yang channel, and it goes down, like I said, your back and the back of your legs, right down to outside of your ankle to your baby toe. That's the channel. And the musculature is kind of that stuff that's going down your back. And when you first start to get sick, that's the channel.

that the virus will hit or the bacteria. And that's why sometimes you get a chill up your spine and you can feel it in your neck. You you start to tell you're getting sick, you feel it in your spine, in your neck, you've been there, right? That's the Tai Yang channel, that's the bladder channel. And you're hitting that, the second point of that channel right there. So that's what you're tapping on, right? And so each point we could do that, but we won't do that, because I know we don't have time. But I wanted to share that there is...

Dr Peta Stapleton (18:01.814)
Yeah, why?

Dr Peta Stapleton (18:10.133)
wow.

Lorne Brown (18:19.187)
You could spend probably an hour on each point and explain why it could be doing what it's doing. Yes, yes. And the bladder is paired with the kidney system and kidneys, the kidney energy, so water, bladder, kidney is fear. That's the emotion. So it releases stored fear and subconscious tension from trauma.

Dr Peta Stapleton (18:24.138)
I definitely think there's a course for that at some point.

Dr Peta Stapleton (18:42.702)
Wow, okay, that level of intention that you mentioned, knowing that information is actually, yeah, really helpful to be able to focus on, isn't it, if someone is coming. Yeah.

Lorne Brown (18:52.555)
Well, it's nice to have intention sometimes. Some people believe it means a lot, but just tapping on it with some attention, it does help. also, yeah, so I think what you guys are doing is bladder two, but if you're further back in the temple, you're on Ta-Yong, but looking at the books and stuff, I think it's bladder two also, so you're still on the bladder chat. Sorry, I said that wrong. Side of the aisle is gob-latter one.

Dr Peta Stapleton (19:02.872)
So side of the eye.

Dr Peta Stapleton (19:22.2)
Let them.

Lorne Brown (19:22.251)
or Tai Yang, which is an extra point. So gallbladder one, also known as Xiao Yang, and that gallbladder and liver are connected. So it clears liver, chi stagnation. Most people are familiar with the term chi stagnation and the wood or the liver organ system, gallbladder, liver is about frustration. So clears liver, chi stagnation, helping with emotional suppression and frustration.

Dr Peta Stapleton (19:44.75)
Okay, good one to know for the odd meeting we might have to go into. People do rub when they have a headache, don't they?

Lorne Brown (19:46.461)
Yeah.

Yeah, yes, yeah, they like to rub there. And there's an obviously that point, just the one that's called Tai Yang, that's a common point for temple headaches. So they're really close together. And if you're tapping with two fingers, you're tapping both. Stomach two, if you're talking now again, right on the bone, because I see some people tap all the way down to the nose, which is another point on the stomach channel. But this is stomach two.

Dr Peta Stapleton (20:06.222)
Okay, under the eye.

Lorne Brown (20:19.059)
And this connects to the spleen system, which harmonizes emotional digestion and reducing worry. So think of pensiveness and worry, right? This point is called, do 26. This is an emergency point in Chinese medicine. If somebody is passing out, you would drive your fingernail in there, like, know, the growing unconscious and it...

Dr Peta Stapleton (20:19.085)
under your.

Dr Peta Stapleton (20:27.114)
one of them fantastic.

Dr Peta Stapleton (20:36.248)
Until next

Lorne Brown (20:43.593)
does not feel good, they will wake up and probably want to punch you, but you did your job because you revived them.

Dr Peta Stapleton (20:50.318)
We're under the nose, so under the nose well.

Lorne Brown (20:52.551)
Under the nodes is called do 26 or governing vestal is the English translation governing vessel 26. It's a shock release point. It helps the body regulate after trauma. Okay.

Dr Peta Stapleton (21:03.682)
Wow, that's, and my husband, I don't know if I've ever shared, but there was a car accident, he obviously got hit, he was okay, but he rang me and said, I just feel like I need to walk to work, which was about a kilometer away, and I said, good idea, need to move the body, but that would have been a really good point for him to tap on while he was walking. Yeah.

Lorne Brown (21:23.573)
Good point to tap on. And if they're going unconscious, you dig your nail in there. You know, you want to keep them conscious, like stay with me, stay with me. Then that's a reviving point. It's a yang to revive like they're, you know, you're reviving the yang because they're they're going out of their body. Not good, right? You want to you want to bring them back. Okay.

Dr Peta Stapleton (21:28.812)
Right, You heard it here first, everybody.

Dr Peta Stapleton (21:44.61)
Well, I'm wondering this just came in. What about dissociation in clients when clients are in therapy and perhaps something the therapist says, the client kind of leaves their body. Not that we're going to run over and drive our fingernail in because that's inappropriate, but if we ask them to tap there, would it bring them back in?

Lorne Brown (22:04.575)
I know we should study this. Being the therapist, would say, that's also the body's defense mechanism because this is too uncomfortable. I'm getting out of here. I don't know. Sometimes there's a reason, the wisdom of the body, it's like, I'm leaving. I can't handle this.

Dr Peta Stapleton (22:12.526)
Thank you.

Dr Peta Stapleton (22:20.086)
Yeah totally. Okay let's get into crease of the chin. So under the lips on the crease there we're using.

Lorne Brown (22:27.627)
Yeah, so the Chinese name is Ren 24 or conception vessel CV 24 is often the English translation. I think that's what they call it. I because I'm I'm so into the Chinese. I'd always remember the English. Yeah, conception vessel is what they call it. And so this this is on the rent channel. So, know, when people talk about the cosmic orbit, there's a meditation. There's the dew channel that was due 26 here.

Dr Peta Stapleton (22:37.261)
Well.

Dr Peta Stapleton (22:45.506)
And what is it in general?

Lorne Brown (22:54.923)
And then there's the rent channel, one going from the back, one coming from the front. And I heard this through Hamid. This is what helps release unspoken emotions and expression blocks. Yeah, so probably. Yeah. So kind of related there, right? So because that because that rent does go up through the throat, the rent channel, it does go up. OK.

Dr Peta Stapleton (23:07.146)
It's like throat chakra, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing.

Dr Peta Stapleton (23:17.09)
makes it. And we talked about bitter collarbone, so we've got two ends of the collarbone coming, what, just like two fingers right under there.

Lorne Brown (23:26.207)
Yeah, so there's a whole bunch of kidney points really close here and then further out in line with kind of like the you get to the nipple area as well. So you got the kidney channel here and then just a little out between the midline and the nipple would be stomach channel up here. It goes out further later on. So when you're looking at the collarbone, it literally be just under the caudal bone, right? And you're tapping here. That would be kidney 27.

Dr Peta Stapleton (23:35.34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Peta Stapleton (23:49.166)
Yeah.

Lorne Brown (23:54.027)
If you're way out here where I see some people tap like on the outside of the collarbone, that's stomach 13. And I always find this fat, yeah, because you know, you're kind of tapping, you know, they give an injection here in Western medicine, the stat-like ganglia, right, for like pain in the shoulder, but research just came out for anxiety and PTSD when you do this. And you know, I love to play with my low level laser therapy. The Japanese Dr. Oshiro, who did this for a parasympathetic response, would put it into stomach 11 to

Dr Peta Stapleton (23:59.682)
Okay.

Lorne Brown (24:23.109)
laser at Stalaganglia for a parasympathetic response. And now there's more research that was in 1995, he did that. There's research out now showing that it has that kind of effect with the needle or laser. But for kidney 27, opens chest congestion to so suppressed emotions. Think of this locally, the kidney system, but lungs, your lungs are here as well, right? And lungs hold grief as well in the lungs.

So grief, overwhelm, so it helps regulate the lung chi for grief and overwhelm, relieves anxiety, suppressed emotions, so kidney 27. Okay.

Dr Peta Stapleton (25:02.734)
Amazing. I love it and makes just makes so much logical sense, doesn't it? Under the arm. So typically.

Lorne Brown (25:08.979)
I believe you're tapping on, again, points in this area, the goblet or channel and the spleen channel are kind of in this area. Spleen 21, it looks like what you're doing behind the breast tissue right under the armpit. Yeah, so that would be spleen 21. And this again, release stored emotional tension in the body, important for trauma release and chronic stress. Now, when you look at textbooks, some of them will just get very physical, some will give emotions because...

Dr Peta Stapleton (25:20.03)
about on the bra strap if women are wearing a bra. Yep.

Lorne Brown (25:36.053)
There was a cultural revolution where they took all the spirit out of the medicine and it became very physical medicine. And then the classics have more. And then I'm not sure where Hamid went and did some of his resourcing and through his teachers. But again, I'm referencing kind of how he shares what these points are for. And then I was thinking, I was looking at, you know, what do you guys call it? The gamut point, the top of the hand?

Dr Peta Stapleton (25:54.83)
amazing.

Dr Peta Stapleton (26:01.768)
Yes, triple warmer. Yes, you can point the ring and the pinky in that look.

Lorne Brown (26:03.753)
Yeah, triple warmer three. Yeah, yeah. So that that's connected to the liver as well. Liver, gallbladder, sand gel. There's a little bit of relationship there. Clears heat from the liver and gallbladder, supports decision making, confidence and forward movement is what.

Dr Peta Stapleton (26:19.534)
That one would be great sitting in your lap tapping on, yep, confidence got to get up, give a talk. Wow.

Lorne Brown (26:26.347)
And then we got to think of the top of the head by way do 20 there, the meeting of the young, like this is like one of the, you know, well known important points in Chinese medicine to connect to spirit. Um, so this clears the mind. This harmonizes the Shen. Shen is your spirit reduces, anxiety, overthinking improves clarity. Um, think of it as a balancing sympathetic, parasympathetic response. Like this is a very powerful point. It's huge. So much in China, pardon me.

Dr Peta Stapleton (26:29.101)
Yeah.

Dr Peta Stapleton (26:51.886)
and right in the centre.

Lorne Brown (26:56.145)
If you folded your ears and they became the tips and you went all the way up, it's in the middle and then along your front line of your forehead.

Dr Peta Stapleton (26:58.658)
Right.

Dr Peta Stapleton (27:06.862)
So what happens when people tap in a circle, which sometimes sort of gets shown in videos and people tap a circle?

Lorne Brown (27:12.853)
So I would, there's four points that surround Dew 20 called C-sheng song that we often use with Dew 20, similar impact. And remember when you're needling, it's very specific because you're into a point. When you're tapping, the vibration's reaching many points.

Dr Peta Stapleton (27:31.148)
Yes, absolutely. Okay, so not too much of a deal breaker if you're not, I use a flat hand just to kind of get the

Lorne Brown (27:36.745)
Yeah, I don't think it's a deal breaker because a there's intention and you're hitting your your your sending a vibration into several points.

Dr Peta Stapleton (27:39.598)
Yeah.

Dr Peta Stapleton (27:45.216)
Amazing. That is fantastic and probably the best I've ever heard, Lorne, of that description of the overlay between. And we have got a chart. I'll make sure it's actually included here that just came from another researcher of the acupuncture. I might actually double check it's accurate. I'll send it to you first. Acupuncture points, EFT points, some of those meanings. often people do ask, yes, side of the hand. So we start there. We actually start there.

Lorne Brown (28:06.315)
We gotta do this one.

Can you see it there? Okay, so this one's small intestine three, and if you're really going to hit the point, it's right distal to the, or proximal to the bone here. So it's just off the bone right there. you know, because some people are tapping, if you're using two fingers, you'd be up close to here. And this is an opening point for the governing vessel that we talked about, the DUE-20, the important point, this is also the governing vessel.

Dr Peta Stapleton (28:23.48)
Yeah.

Lorne Brown (28:38.207)
But I was just in a research lecture where they looked at small intestine 3, incredible for pain management. So to use this point in pain. But when you're using it, this is again a point for fear-based stress. So they're using small intestine 3, DU-26, and bladder 2. The idea here is this combination is engaging the kidney, small intestine, and governing vessel to process stress and anxiety.

Dr Peta Stapleton (28:48.578)
Well, out of the hand.

Dr Peta Stapleton (29:08.398)
Wow, so just go through those again, from, so side of the hand, under the nose, and at the start of the eyebrow, those three together.

Lorne Brown (29:16.509)
Yeah. So consider this grounding and processing fear based stress. So small intestine three is your karate chop point. The nose point is as governing vessel 26 and the eye point is bladder to to engage the kidney system, small intestine and governing vessel to help process stress and anxiety.

Dr Peta Stapleton (29:39.758)
Wow, this is amazing. I've been doing this thing for 25 years and this is the best information I've actually ever heard. And I know we talk about this stuff all the time. Look, I do want to ask the question because sometimes we do get asked, but it is an important point. From an acupuncture point of view or even a tapping therapy point of view, what about contraindications? We sometimes hear that some acupuncture points are inappropriate.

Lorne Brown (29:44.811)
Yes.

Dr Peta Stapleton (30:06.424)
pregnancy might be one of them as far as inducing labour. As far as we know, there haven't been any EFT trials that have indicated adverse events. But people do want to know this when new therapies are being explored for acceptance. What's your take on contraindications?

Lorne Brown (30:23.359)
Yeah, from that perspective, I'll lean into you about the mental emotional contraindications when you just work with anybody bringing up emotions. But none of these come into contraindicated like, my God, you could cause this. And when you talk about pregnancy, the English translation, the way I was taught by some of my senior professors is in English, they say it's contraindicated, but really the meaning is cautionary.

They say actually some of those points are used in pregnancy to save the pregnancy that are considered contraindicating pregnancies. And the way they do it, and I guess in China they teach it, is if you're a junior doctor, they say if you do this, it kills patients. So they just make sure you don't want, but it's not true, right? It's kind of like, I think it's like doing this puts people on the trajectory for death. Doesn't mean you're gonna kill them. It's like wrong treatment. And then when you become experienced and more advanced,

they actually say, actually you do use acupuncture in pregnancy and here's how you do it. So a lot of junior beginner acupuncturists, I was told and taught, are told not to treat women in pregnancy. But that's just because so you can't do harm. But if you're trained, you can. So that's just my little sidebar that there's some cautionary points. None of the points that you're tapping are cautionary in pregnancy. Okay? Yeah.

Dr Peta Stapleton (31:43.81)
That's how we understand it as well. even, yeah.

Lorne Brown (31:46.443)
And to share that because I do a lot of work with fertility and pregnancy in my practice, like we're well known for that. When somebody is overdue and wants to help things move along and their midwife or doctor saying, you know, we're going to do, she got to do stuff. Sometimes we'll use those points that they say don't use in pregnancy. They say don't use them because they say it could cause labor and contraction. We're putting strong stimulation in, sometimes it doesn't still, so the baby doesn't come out and it's supposed to be.

Dr Peta Stapleton (32:12.528)
So thank you for the time.

Lorne Brown (32:14.687)
But just so you know, like people are like, my God, like, yeah, it's not like the movies when you do that.

Dr Peta Stapleton (32:19.726)
And the other area that does come up for questioning are things like seizure disorders that, again, I totally agree and we would say from a therapy point of view, know, don't go where you don't belong when you don't have the experience yet, that kind of thing. But what about acupuncture tapping on these points too for, you know, contraindications, caution around seizures or, you know, severe psychotic kind of disorders?

Lorne Brown (32:47.891)
Yeah, well, I would say any health professional, no matter what medallion you're if somebody has a severe psychotic disorder, you're at risk of them having a psychotic episode. I don't know if it's so much a medallion, it's just the nature of the terrain the individual is doing. Regardless of whether you're doing acupuncture, whether you're doing CBT, whether you're doing hypnosis. So I don't think the points would trigger that. when you say, and I always use the word,

Dr Peta Stapleton (33:10.114)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Lorne Brown (33:17.375)
Carefully think versus no think is an opinion. No is I have I got data for you, right? That's why I know because I have data think is I don't think so But I can't say I know because I've never looked at data for that and I've never done research on that

Dr Peta Stapleton (33:32.866)
Yeah, sure. And to my knowledge, I mean, there's a couple of papers published on EFT for seizures. They were they had positive outcomes, but again, limited number of sort of research trials that been described. If we were to sum up, Lorne, and kind of, you know, really wrap up what we've been chatting about, which has absolutely been fascinating, even from my point of view, how do you envisage perhaps that, you know, acupuncture, EFT, other tapping therapies, how can they kind of

come together as a comprehensive treatment approach for clients out there. How do you see or wish or hope that they could...

Lorne Brown (34:10.699)
Well, I'll share how I'm using it in my practice. the second part, I would say that for the therapist that you work with, if they learn more about the medicine and the murdering system, they could probably take EFT to a whole other level. Because we're tapping on only on the senior channels. And as I mentioned, there's the divergent channels, and then there's going into the HOSI points, into the joints there are. And so there's a whole

system under Chinese medicine of where this trauma hides. So when we're tapping, you're kind of tapping on the superficial level. And if it's a deep, deep into the body, maybe the idea is it's sending it down deep into the body when you tap superficially. So that's how you reach it. So from your audience perspective, I think that they could probably evolve EFT and maybe it would become even more beneficial in practice with a deeper understanding of

Chinese medicine. then in my, so they don't have to know needles, they just have to know the theory, right? And then I use it, I like acupuncture because it's shown to help with parasympathetic response, getting to alpha brain waves. So often in my practice, I'll do some acupuncture points to kind of calm the nervous system, call it calm the shen. And when the patient's a little more relaxed, then I'll start to work with the I'm clinical trained.

hypnotherapists as well. So I like this approach I call notice, accept, choose again, which I like EFT because it actually has NAC in it, notice, accept, choose again. So notice, even though I have a fear of pencils, I'm noticing it, right? I deeply and completely accept myself. there, you know, I'm accepting it. And then when we're tapping, we are staying present with the emotion, right? We're not adding resistance to it because it's the resistance that creates cheese stagnation. I don't know how...

because I only keep bringing in my hypnosis background. When people come to me and they say, it doesn't work, I've tried it. One of the most common things I see people do that I definitely do it differently and I've learned from you this way as well. So thank you for being a great teacher. You don't tap to feel better. You're tapping to be present with your emotions. And well, get read, that's the byproduct.

Dr Peta Stapleton (36:26.68)
No.

and to reduce them.

Lorne Brown (36:33.259)
So if you're willing to be uncomfortable and sit with the feelings and observe them and stay present, that's where the alchemy happens and they metabolize. So as soon as I'm tapping and I'm trying not to feel this way, I've left the present moment. So EFT for me is an incredible tool to help people stay present in their feelings and observe them. And Michael Brown, who wrote The Presence Process, says, you're not trying to feel better, you're getting better at feeling, you're being authentic.

And then through this process, because remember the body has wisdom, these emotions, it's not that you're never gonna feel fear, it's that fear in Chinese medicine, somebody or anger, somebody cuts you off at traffic and scares you and you're upsetting, you're angry for five minutes, that's a healthy human response. If tomorrow you're telling somebody how somebody cut you off on traffic and you're still upset and you're on the internet trying to find out where they live so you can burn their house down, that is pathological.

There's a problem there, stagnation. So, but we have this stuck in our body. And so when we're tapping, we're having an opportunity to release. So we bring up the anger and now for 30 seconds to five minutes, we experience the anger while we stay present and tap and we're helping the body because it's trapped in the body. So you're tapping to support the body. So this energy can now flow through you and be released. And then, so you're not adding resistance.

The resistance drops, the energy is released, and there's a sense of relief. And then the choose again is now how do I want to be? Because I don't have this stagnant stuck energy. That's how I use it in my practice as a present moment tool to help release energy, stuck energy. Energy that becomes chronically stuck creates disease. But if I got angry because somebody cut me off in traffic, that's not a bad response. It scared me, and I'm angry.

but it should only last a few minutes. Like a bad song on the radio. If you just wait it out, it will pass. If you keep thinking about it, it's like hitting repeat.

Dr Peta Stapleton (38:35.374)
That's what these.

And we do say EFT tapping, 25 years of tapping, that's me. It doesn't take away the normal human response. It's just short-lived. So again, you might still feel frustrated at your kids or you want to snap at your partner or whatever, but it's in the moment and you move on. Like little babies, they're like crying, then they're laughing and then they're, yeah, I agree. And what you just said, Lorne,

best explanation ever even of EFT is going in the front of the next academic paper that I write. I'm like right this is full credit to Dr. Lorne Brown that was brilliant. love that. Luckily we have a transcript.

Lorne Brown (39:08.011)
.

What did I say? I have to read your paper.

Dr Peta Stapleton (39:20.238)
That's fantastic. Lorne, this has been the most enlightening conversation and I know so many people are going to benefit even if they're brand new to the EFT tapping world or fourth-wave therapies in general or have never really thought about the acupuncture overlay. You did mention that a deeper dive and understanding into acupuncture for practitioners and therapists is probably going to just supercharge their work.

Is there somewhere you would recommend that would be absolutely the easiest way and not going to kind of, know, a degree?

Lorne Brown (39:50.377)
yet.

Lorne Brown (39:54.857)
Yeah, because you know, yeah, because you know, it's a five year program to become a Chinese medicine doctor, at least in BC. I would say these two practitioners, because they have books and they have courses. Yvonne Farrell and Hamid Montekob both work on the emotional trauma. So all they're taking Chinese medicine from the emotional aspect. Hamid has written several books, but he does have a book totally related to emotions.

and Yvonne's written two books and one of them is very much on emotion, psycho-emotional health, and they both have courses on, so I'm biased here because I own the company, so if you buy the course, I benefit. If you buy their books, I don't, but if you buy their courses, I do. so Hamid and Yvonne have it on Healthy Seminars, and Hamid has created what he calls, PAT, think, so Palpation Acupuncture Technique, because he's taken EFT

Dr Peta Stapleton (40:38.03)
problem.

Dr Peta Stapleton (40:42.648)
We'll make sure that.

Lorne Brown (40:54.155)
and acupuncture and he's taking it to a more comprehensive level using the theory. So it's gone deeper with bringing in the Chinese medicine theory. But it's very, very similar to EFT. He just added some points, other things, because having the understanding of anatomy, we talked about the map, the Chinese map of the body, he just says, if we're working with this kind of emotion, we should work on this. And Chinese medicine has an understanding of the

There's five souls in the body. We're not going to go in there today, but so it just really has a very deep comprehensive understanding of the conscious and subconscious. And when we have psychosis or imbalances, which soul system is out of balance? So they know where to kind of that your symptoms are letting them know, we should go down this channel, this organ system. So.

Dr Peta Stapleton (41:48.366)
We'll make sure those links are really evident below so that if anyone wants to click, go and explore further, it's only going to be of benefit for your client work or even your own personal kind of journey, everybody. Lauren, this has been brilliant. I know that we have seen each other at conferences and literally sat by the pool and talked for hours about lots and lots of different things. And I know that it's going to be worth us coming back for another conversation at some point. Thank you so much for leaving accounting.

Lorne Brown (42:17.597)
Yeah

Dr Peta Stapleton (42:17.81)
and finding Chinese acupuncture and all of the knowledge of wisdom. yeah, and I do encourage everybody to explore healthy seminars as well as if anyone has some fertility journey going on that is absolutely part of your work as well and that you're known for. So all of the links below, Lauren's full bio is there as well. Thank you so much for your time, for chatting to us and just telling us all of this information.

Lorne Brown (42:44.175)
I really so easy to talk to PETA and thank you for your questions and thinking that I have something of value of interest to talk about. So I appreciate that as well.

Dr Peta Stapleton (42:53.042)
no, and look, just one more thing, everybody, because we do provide questions ahead of time for people like Lorne to think about. So Lorne actually went off and wrote a whole blog based on the questions, some of which I probably didn't get to, but we have got a link there below. So if you want to have a read of the answers to the questions that we had proposed that we were going to chat about, Lorne actually already beat me to it, wrote a whole blog. So the link is below, Lorne. Thank you so much for that. Thank you.

Lorne Brown (43:20.053)
Thanks, Peter.

Healthy Seminars - https://lornebrown.com/healthy-seminars/ 

Pro D Seminars - https://prodseminars.net/

Integrative Fertility Symposium - https://ifs.healthyseminars.com/

Acubalance Wellness Centre - https://acubalance.ca/ and https://lornebrown.com/acubalance/