Emma Gray

Emma Gray - Overcoming Self-Doubt: A Journey to Purpose

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Peta Stapleton (00:01.748)
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the fourth wave in therapy. And I'm absolutely thrilled today to have with me Emma Gray. Now let me tell you a little bit about Emma, but absolutely read below for a much more in-depth bio. Emma is a bestselling author and she wrote inspired living, which is co-authored with a Harvard trained neuroscientist, Dr. Larry Farwell. And he's a quantum physicist as well. Can you imagine the conversation she'd have with Larry?

But Emma herself is a clinical psychologist, coach and meditation teacher. And her mission is to support women who want to make a difference in the world. And so that's why we absolutely want to dive deep today. So we are going to talk a little bit about Emma's work and about how women can follow their soul calling. I love that. That just is wonderful. But all about how this is possible. And I think, you know, we are in such a unique time in history.

Emma, thank you so much for joining me.

Emma Gray (00:59.832)
Thanks, Peter. I am so excited to be here and have this conversation with you.

Peta Stapleton (01:04.272)
It's so cool, isn't it? Like just doing any podcast where you just sort of get to pretend people are listening to us, but we just get to really dive deep into what we want to have a chat about. We're so both so excited. So I just love it. It's great. Amazing. Emma, if I could ask a question just to get us started and to sort of, you know, let our audience know about your work, you're really helping and focusing on supporting women. And a lot of that is about overcoming self doubt and following what you're calling

your soul's calling, which I think is just something that we're all probably searching for. What brought you to that? Like, how did you make this your work as a clinical psychologist?

Emma Gray (01:44.686)
Yeah, well, it's been a journey as you know, we've all been on a journey, but I always knew I've always had this sense that I wanted to help people just wasn't exactly clear what that was and how that would unfold. But having my own life experiences, my own struggles, my own challenge as a woman, as a mother, as a partner, as a, you know, working with in the work that I do, burnout, anxiety, overwhelmed, divorce, all of the things I learned.

some really powerful lessons in all of that, some beautiful gifts, some deep soul searching, you know, I went through my own dark night of the soul and that opened me to new ways of being, new ways of seeing the world, new ways of understanding our journey as humans and as souls having this human experience. And through all of that, it really helped me develop a much deeper sense of compassion and

connection and really deep desire to want to help others who maybe have been on a similar journey, who've been through their own path of suffering, but also who have this sense of, I'm here for a reason. There's this sense of purpose. There's this calling that I want to do more, that I want to serve others and to help them discover that. So I think my own path through that helped me figure out what that is for me and how to come through that. And so now I just want to

share and support and serve others who are also on their own journey and really feel called to do.

Peta Stapleton (03:19.764)
Just fantastic. And I know you're particularly focusing on for women and obviously makes a lot of sense as far as being able to share, you know, all those roles that we do carry as women. But it kind of, you know, the first question that really came up for me when you were describing all of that was, how do we find our souls calling? And I know there's probably no short answer to that because everyone's got a very unique and different set of skills and strengths. But, you know, what is it that could start that path?

for someone to find it.

Emma Gray (03:50.464)
Yeah, so it's an art and science of working with my clients to help them discover that, but it always reveals itself because deep down we already know every soul is born into this lifetime with powerful intentions and desires and with the interests, passions, strengths, qualities that we need already inherently within us to fulfill those intentions, those desires that

calling. So I know that every client that I'm working with, whether it's one to one or in a group setting, that deep within they already know that. And so I'm just going to support them with different tools to clear the noise of the messy human mind, to shift those self doubts and those fears, to be able to tune in, to hear, to listen to that deeper voice, that deeper knowing, that intuition, higher self, whatever you want to call that.

and really listen to the heart and with practical, tangible, simple tools to clear that noise and tune into that inner voice and it will reveal itself and the steps are there, you know, the path reveals itself, specific steps on do this, call this person, do that to lead them onto the path to the thing that's really going to light up their soul.

Peta Stapleton (05:09.172)
and

Peta Stapleton (05:14.502)
I know anyone listening is probably going to go, what are those practical tools that I could be doing? And meditation, I'm guessing, is part of that, but can expand for us a little bit about what are these tools that might be available to people to start to use?

Emma Gray (05:28.686)
Yeah, so I see that there's two levels of the human mind basically. There's the nervous system or what I call the cave person mind, you know, the part of us that wants to keep us safe, that wants to protect us, that thinks there might be sabre-toothed tigers lurking around every corner. They're the fears, they're the doubts, they're the limiting beliefs. The part of us that wants to stay safe and play small. So I use of all of the different...

You know, I've trained in lots of therapies and lots of techniques, CBT, ACT, DBT, CFT, all of the letters of the alphabet, you name it. But absolutely tapping is by far and away the most effective tool of all of the things that I've learned, that I've practiced on myself, that I've used with my clients. It works like magic, as you know, clears away that noise in the human mind, helps calm.

the cave person fears. And once that is quiet, then there's a combination of meditation, mindfulness, grounding tools, visualizations, and other techniques that help us listen to the signals of our body, help us hear that intuitive voice more clearly and get clarity on.

who we are and what we're about and what we want and how to open ourselves to opportunities and what might present.

Peta Stapleton (07:01.074)
Yeah. And is tapping then, is that one of these first kind of, you know, things to maybe try for the quietening of particularly that cave kind of mind? Is it around tapping just to sort of become centered or for regulation? Is it for specific events in the past? How is it that if a listener, you know, might be really familiar with EFT or tapping, is it just about kind of trying to quieten that monkey mind?

Emma Gray (07:30.99)
Yeah, so it depends on where the client is at and what state they're presenting mentally, emotionally and energetically, physically. I feel like we could, I could give you a really big long answer or a short answer here, because I mean, I use Stephen Porge's polyvagal theory and model, and I also use Paul Gilbert's affect regulation model to get a sense of where the client is at, how loud is the noise in the mind?

how dysregulated are they emotionally and physically in their body? So if necessary, yes, I will use grounding and tapping to settle that, to bring them into the present moment so that they're in the state then to have some more expansive experiences. But basically what I guess it boils down to is if they're in a stable state.

and they're ready to engage, I will invite them to set a goal. It's the goal setting approach to tapping. Set a goal, write it down. You know, it's now June, 2025, and I am now doing this thing and whatever it might be. And then identifying the limiting beliefs, the tail-enders, the yeah-buts that come up. but I couldn't possibly do that. I don't know enough. I'm not expert enough. I'm not, you know, all of the things that cave person

brings up to keep us safe. So identifying those limiting beliefs and tapping on those one by one. Let's shift that belief. Let's shift that belief. Let's shift that belief. And sometimes that might take a number of sessions to move through that. Sometimes that stuff can shift in one session and the person is clear and ready and let me at it. I want I want to go. I want to I want to pursue my dream. My goal. Yeah.

Peta Stapleton (09:20.424)
Yeah, that's so cool. And a lovely way to come in, I guess, because goals are obviously something people are quite attached to and want to come true. So a lovely way to kind of work out, yeah, how do you want the future to look? And, okay, let's work with what blocks might be sort of present, keeping that away from you. yeah, that's a really lovely, lovely way. Look, we really are talking here about, you know, you're a clinical psychologist.

but yet you are blending with your traditional sort of scientific training, you know, other modalities that perhaps, you know, maybe are sitting out here in a spiritual kind of container, woo woo, whatever people want to call it. How do you blend those as a clinical psychologist? You know, maybe what are people's misconceptions about trying to do those in mainstream kind of therapy approaches?

Emma Gray (10:14.52)
Yeah, and I will do it in a slightly different way depending on if I'm working with a therapy client or if I'm working with a coaching client, because I have to be mindful of the regulatory codes and ethical and legal guidelines. But in essence, the science and the spirituality perspectives of the world can be integrated in a really powerful and elegant way.

to more deeply serve the client. So in terms of the science, it's using evidence-based tools, techniques, strategies, approaches. Primarily, the way that I work is to work with the nervous system in some of the ways that I've described to bring people out of shutdown or sympathetic arousal into parasympathetic rest so that they're in a calm, clear, grounded state. To then look at their strengths and their values and

they want to be and how they want to show up in the world to give them a greater sense of meaning and joy and purpose and whatever that might be and depending on where they're at when they first come to see me that might be a long journey if you know they're really unwell or it might be a shorter journey if they've already done some work or they you know have less less challenges whatever it might be. So there's the neuroscience of working with the nervous system to

help them regulate themselves and work on any complex trauma or small t-trauma, whatever it might be that's showing up for them. So that's the scientific approach using all of my clinical skills and tools and knowledge. And then in the back of my mind, I have this spiritual perspective of the world as I touched on before that every soul is born into this lifetime.

with desires, with intentions, with interests, with passions, with strengths, with an impulse to self-actualize, to move into the fullest expression of ourselves in this lifetime. So it's having that understanding that I know that they have everything within them and that the suffering that they have experienced has only served them in more powerful ways to step more fully into the

Emma Gray (12:38.744)
truest expression of themselves. So I don't even view suffering as a bad thing. Obviously it's unpleasant, uncomfortable, painful, but I can see that from a higher perspective. It is really powerfully serving all of us because we all suffer in different ways and experience challenges and painful things in life. So it's having that understanding and reframing that to look for how has this served me and how is this going to

forward into the things that are really going to give me a sense of meaning and purpose. And not with a spiritual bypass because we're doing the nervous system work, we're doing the healing first. And I won't bring in my spiritual perceptions, I won't introduce that conversation at all unless and until the client does and then using their language and their beliefs and their perspectives on the world. But I have that broader view as I'm working with the client that

Gradually, bit by bit, we're peeling back the onion layers and the true self will reveal itself.

Peta Stapleton (13:40.828)
Yeah, yeah amazing and you your target group here particularly supporting women like do you find that there's I guess common you know maybe even limiting beliefs or things that hold women back in particular as you know we're talking about supporting them to find you know they're they're almost returning to what they already knew perhaps coming in so taking that kind of approach.

supporting them to re-find that sort of, know, soul's calling. Do you find that there's common things that block women?

Emma Gray (14:21.006)
Yes, and particularly with the clients that I tend to attract, whether they're therapy clients or my coaching clients, they definitely have a profile and I think that they're a version of me.

Peta Stapleton (14:32.3)
Let's just talk about that for a minute. We're not alone there, Emma. think most of our clients are a mirror. I love it.

Emma Gray (14:34.478)
You

Emma Gray (14:42.862)
For sure, yes. So I tend to attract sensitive, soulful, gentle, HSP type of humans and not coincidentally, are often therapists, coaches, they might be EFT practitioners, they might be healthcare workers. They're in helping caring professions often, or they want to be. You know, maybe they want to escape the corporate world and move into that.

because there's an inbuilt calling, I wanted to do more of this. So they're the types that I tend to attract and definitely they have a clear profile. As you would know, being a therapist and probably working with lots of therapists, we tend to show up as self-sacrificing people pleases, the perfectionists, the unrelenting standards, the imposter syndrome. I don't know enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy enough.

There's limiting beliefs around money and not deserving and all of those things that come with a beautiful, kind, empathetic, compassionate heart that lead us to put ourselves last or to the bottom of the list. So working through that and helping them release some of that and let that go so they really can give themselves permission to.

step out into the light, you know, because there's a lot of few of being seen. So to step out into the light and to fully be who they're meant to be in this lifetime. So as a, you know, I sometimes joke and call myself a recovering self-sacrificing perfectionistic people, please. Because I can probably tick all of those things. But there's some of the definitely some of the profiles that I see.

in most of the clients who come to see me.

Peta Stapleton (16:34.27)
Yeah, and look, know, even, you know, people that perhaps listen to these types of podcasts, know, fourth waves and therapy and things like that may well kind of, you know, be listening in for their own kind of, you know, personal self work or, tips and tricks for their clients and things. But again, are called or interested in, you know, listening to these kinds of conversations about what else, you know, can be offered in this therapy space. And certainly, you know, what you're talking about.

Yeah, absolutely has a role. And the delivery of that is all about timing, isn't it? You know, with when the client might start to talk about something that is a doorway that can open, you know, I can't, you know, share enough about the amount of clients. Most of my clinical work has been with young teenagers with eating disorders. But yet the conversations were about existential meaning of life. They weren't about calories in food. It was about

yeah deeper kind of let alone perhaps you know 55 year old women that maybe have lived full lives and had lots of different roles in their life. Again I'm guessing same kind of conversation like what's the meaning or how do I is that what brings people into your space that particularly women you know are looking for what else like would that sort of summarise it?

Emma Gray (18:00.482)
hundred percent they are existential conversations. There is they've either been through an existential crisis and are recovering from that and are ready for the next thing. or they wanting to move into existential growth that there definitely is this sense of I came into this lifetime with a purpose. With a calling. I want to figure out what that is or maybe they've figured that out but have all these fears and limiting beliefs getting in the way.

So they want to step more fully into that. For sure. It's hard to have a superficial conversation with the sort of people who come into my world, who I attract. We move into these deeper, meaningful, what is the purpose of life? Why are we here? How can we be more happy? How can we be more joyful? How can we find more peace? How can we do the things that really light us up? Yeah.

Peta Stapleton (18:53.948)
Yeah, it makes me think that maybe there's a listener who, and sometimes you know I think of you know people at different stages of their life, might be in the trenches you know, maybe little children, very busy, might be working, obviously you know might be in a relationship as well, not a lot of time and space for themselves, overwhelm might be a good word but I call it in the trenches, you're like doing the hard stuff because you know.

Children still need demands. Maybe there's parents that have demands on you too. If someone's there, yet they're kind of listening in even while they vacuum and cleaning the house or whatever, kind of going, I want a little bit of that, but I just don't know how to weave that into my life at the moment. So don't have the space. Do you have any suggestions or advice? guess what sort of steps could someone take to find a little bit of quiet, even if they don't have the ability at the moment to

create space to dig deeper and find out what that is.

Emma Gray (19:57.964)
Yes, and I think that's a really beautiful question, Peter, and I can remember being there. You know, total burnout because trying to manage babies and little children and work and study and be a wife and be a friend and be a daughter and show up in all the different roles and all the different ways that we want to show up and getting to that place of, it felt like for me, total annihilation.

Peta Stapleton (20:03.252)
Sorry. Sorry.

Emma Gray (20:23.702)
at every level of my being, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, where there was no time for me. My special me time was a trip to the dentist. Like there was no time for me to do anything for me. So I certainly resonate with any of the listeners who might feel in that space or, you know, somewhere along that spectrum where they might be feeling overwhelmed and not a lot of time. So for me,

actually being in that total place of burnout was a beautiful gift while I wouldn't want to live it again. What it showed me with crystal clear clarity is the people, the places, the activities, the environments that were depleting me and not nourishing me, supporting me, energising me. And so I made, I had to make

some difficult decisions about the things and the people that weren't serving me and start to set boundaries, which was really hard for me as a self-sacrificing people pleaser. But I had to learn to set boundaries, to say no to the things that were really going to suck the life out of me because I needed to be able to be present, not just for me, but for my children and my clients and the people around me. So figuring out where to say no.

so that we do have a little bit more space and understanding that that is not an easy thing to do that that can bring up guilt and anxiety and normalizing that and making space for that. And then even if you can find two minutes in your day just to take some deep breaths if you can find a little bit more time to do a meditation even if it's a five or a ten minute meditation that was the thing that

was transformational for me to come out of that place of burnout into starting to replenish and nourish myself mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually to bring my parasympathetic nervous system back online to rest the mind and the body, to rest the nervous system and to start to energise and to start to think more clearly. So if you've only got two minutes, put the screen down and just breathe.

Emma Gray (22:47.488)
or look at a tree or sit in the sun, just really simple ways that we can ground ourselves and just start to create a little bit of mental space, but also rest for the body if that's what we need.

Peta Stapleton (23:00.018)
Yeah, absolutely. It can be really tricky, can it? Sometimes different stages of life, different demands. yeah, particularly, think for women in lots of those nurturing roles in life, naturally being pulled in many directions and really trying to find that the opportunities that might be there that could double up as time for you. can remember a long time ago now, 15, 16 years ago, we'd

purchased a house that financially kind of stretched us a little bit. So there wasn't a lot of extra money to go around. And, you know, even with our young children, my weekly trip to kind of keep them engaged was go to the local library because we couldn't afford to go and buy them kind of new books to read. we go, oh, you know, this is the exciting place you can go to and get 20 books and then swap them a week later. They're like, this is genius. So we'd walk to the library.

And so the girls would be off looking at the picture books and collecting their books and videos for the week. But I took that opportunity that there were magazines, the brand new latest magazines that I could just read and catch up on, home magazines or whatever, that were there. You couldn't borrow them, but that you could go into a corner, children were safe. And I would try and use those moments just to say, I might not go out and purchase these magazines, but I could sit here and just have a look at it.

whatever's happening in Hollywood or the latest home magazine or get inspired in some way while the girls were picking their books. And even that brief kind of moment was done at the same time as being with them. Yeah. It allowed me to sort of get some perspective and cope a little bit better. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Emma, what's next for you? Like, where do you, your own...

Emma Gray (24:43.0)
Yeah.

Peta Stapleton (24:48.358)
soul calling has led you to this place which is definitely supporting women and but is there something in you that's creating what what is your next journey?

Emma Gray (25:01.1)
Yeah, so I feel very blessed actually now, Peter, after everything that I've been through that mostly I am living in a place of peace and calm and ease and joy and well-being and I feel like I have a spaciousness of time and I now view my world and my calling as I'm going to let the universe surprise and delight me.

I'm just going to be in the present moment and do the things that feel fun for me, connect with the people who I really love to connect with, continue to work with my clients in the way that I am. One-to-one and in group settings, you know, I run what I call women's wisdom groups for like-minded, soulful, beautiful women to come and connect with each other in a safe, nurturing space. So I definitely want to keep doing more of that. I want to...

lots more tapping because I'm obsessed with that. but really I'm I'm open. I know that there is more for me. I know that there is a calling. I feel a draw to serve in bigger and more powerful ways. I don't know what that look like looks like but I don't need to know. I know that at some level there is a plan for that and that path will reveal itself.

But in the meantime, I just want to live with as much peace and joy as I can. And then the opportunities present, you know, from that place of being, the opportunities always just present themselves. You know, there'll be a synchronicity. I'll meet someone, they'll introduce me to someone, they'll invite me to do something. Someone will ask me to show up and serve in a particular space or in a particular way. I go, woohoo, this sounds great. This sounds fun. So to be of service.

Peta Stapleton (26:52.542)
Yes.

Emma Gray (26:56.366)
to women especially, and just see however that unfolds. I'm open to the great mystery and the plan unfolding.

Peta Stapleton (27:06.58)
So cool to be just surrendering and in that place to be able to, yeah, just be present to see what comes up. And I'm thinking if anyone is listening in and just feels, you know, this conversation, I hope energetically people can kind of feel your energy, Emma, even if they're listening rather than watching kind of, you know, the YouTube video, but feel drawn to kind of want to work with you. Like, where's the best place for people?

to connect with you to actually see what you're offering and if they're in a place where they're able to take that next step to want to find their own souls calling.

Emma Gray (27:47.374)
Sure, yeah. So they're welcome to go to my website, emmagray.net and there's lots of free resources on there. There's free tapping resources, there's free meditation and visualization resources on there. So people are welcome to check that out if they want to. There's information there on how they can connect with me if they want to do some one-on-one coaching with me or if they want to join one of my Women's Wisdom groups. Lots of different ways that they can connect with me there.

Peta Stapleton (28:14.248)
Fabulous and everyone we've got the link there for emmagrade.net in the notes below so you can absolutely go off and a link to Emma's book inspired living if you do want to read and I'm hoping there's another book because I love a good book so I'm somewhere I don't know the universe kind of says you should write another book Emma. The surrender experiment. So true.

Emma Gray (28:32.558)
If it presents itself, then yes.

Peta Stapleton (28:39.828)
Emma, it's just been lovely to connect like this. And I know we were talking about other things offline and I'm like, how about we talk on the podcast and you were like, yes, yes. So there was a perfect example of, yeah, just saying yes and sharing with more people out there exactly how you can support women. And I do hope there's someone listening in that really this connects with and you might want to even just try and that two minutes of space, if not connect with Emma to take it further.

Thank you so much, Emma, for, you know, it's weird to say, but everything you went through to get you to this space so that, yeah, you're in a space now to offer what you do. So it's just been wonderful to connect with you today.

Emma Gray (29:23.0)
Thank you, Peter. It's been so joyful to have this conversation. And I know I said this offline to you and I know I've said it to you before, but I also wanted to say thank you for you and the work that you do in this space because you absolutely are a trailblazer. And I know it takes great courage to step out and be seen. So really the deepest appreciation for who you are and the work that you're doing to support humans.

Peta Stapleton (29:45.14)
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Emma. I swear, I'm lucky I picked tapping as the tool to investigate because it absolutely supported my journey along the way as well. So thank you so much for that. That's just lovely. All right, everyone, we have got all the show notes below for you, including Emma's links. And I do hope you go off and explore a little bit further. And we look forward to seeing you back on another episode of The Fourth Wave in Therapy. Thanks, everyone.

Resources

About Emma Gray

Emma Gray a bestselling author, Clinical Psychologist, coach, and meditation teacher. Her mission is to support women who want to make a difference in the world. She helps women break through self-doubt and limiting beliefs to follow their Soul Calling and create lives (and businesses) they truly love. Emma is deeply passionate (some might say obsessed!) with meditation, tapping, and the intersection between science and spirituality. She brings together nerdy neuroscience and soulful wisdom in a way that's both practical and transformational to help her clients create more ease, joy and abundance in their lives.

Her international bestselling book, Inspired Living, is co-authored with Dr Larry Farwell, a Harvard-trained neuroscientist and quantum physicist, featured in Time Magazine’s Top 100 Innovators of the Century.

Emma lives on Sydney’s northern beaches with her family.

Website: https://emmagray.net/