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In this episode, Peta Stapleton interviews Dr. Hayley Kelly, a clinical psychologist, discussing the challenges within the mental health system, the burnout faced by therapists, and the disconnect between therapy practices and business skills. They explore the evolving expectations of clients and the need for innovation in therapy to better serve the community. We delve into the evolving landscape of therapy practices, exploring the critical need for innovation and adaptation in the field. As societal challenges and technological advancements reshape the way we approach mental health, therapists are called to embrace new methods and tools to enhance their practice. Join us as I chat with Dr Hayley Kelly and discover how innovation is not just an option but a necessity in the future world of mental health care.

 Takeaways

• The mental health system is fundamentally flawed and needs change.

• Therapists often feel constrained by traditional practices and funding models.

• There is a significant gap between therapist training and current client needs.

• Many therapists experience burnout and consider leaving the profession.

• The stigma around business skills prevents therapists from reaching more people.

• The current mental health system rewards throughput over transformation.

• Therapists are often silenced for speaking out about systemic issues.

• The demand for therapy has evolved with societal changes, including technology.

• Therapists need to innovate and adapt to serve their clients better.

• The conversation around mental health must include diverse opinions and experiences.

Chapters

00:00:03 A Deep Dive into the State of Mental Health Care: A Conversation with Dr. Hayley Kelly

00:05:31 A Journey of Truth, Silence, and Academic Life: A Conversation with a Neurodivergent Person

00:07:04 The Mixed Reception: Ethical Questions and Social Media Misuse in the Mental Health Industry

00:10:42 The Challenges and Future of One-on-One Therapy in the Digital Age

00:18:34 Challenges and Limitations in the Delivery of Psychology Therapy

00:20:09 The Impact of Regulation and Social Media on Mental Health Education

00:25:40 Next Era of Mental Health and the Importance of Competencies in Therapy

00:29:04 The Evolution of Mental Health Care in the Digital Age

00:34:42 Finding Hope and Change in Difficult Times

00:37:28 The Power of Small Steps and Collective Action in Change

Keywords: mental health, therapy, burnout, therapists, innovation, business skills,
compassion fatigue, mental health system, therapy options, generational shifts

Note: this is unedited.

0:03
All righty, welcome back everyone to another episode of the 4th Wave in Therapy.

0:09
And today with me is a colleague and some of you may have heard our story in the past of how we did meet and maybe we might actually talk about that today and how our relationship has come to be in the meantime.

0:23
So Doctor Hayley Kelly is a clinical psychologist, speaker, and founder of Therapists Rising.

0:29
With over a decade, decade in the therapy room and a PhD in psychology, Haley now helps therapists expand their impact beyond one on one work through her mental Health 3.0 framework.

0:41
And we are going to get into this.

0:43
It's a future ready model for thriving in a digital first, ethically complex mental health landscape.

0:51
All of Haley's details are below and a bit more of an extended bio.

0:54
But Haley, thank you so much for your time.

0:57
I'm very excited to be here.

1:00
I really want to unpack and jump into a topic that you've been talking about on social media and one that hopefully, you know, our listeners might kind of connect with, particularly because of what has been happening in that social media kind of landscape.

1:17
And a little bit of that has been because you've been a little bit outspoken about the mental health system being broken in inverted comments as such.

1:27
Can you tell us a little bit about what led you to what has happened in some of the comments and posts that you've been making?

1:35
And maybe just if someone was tuning in kind of going, what are they talking about?

1:40
A little bit of context and background behind that.

1:44
Yeah, it's a huge question to begin with, isn't it?

1:47
So let's, I guess let's start with giving the context and then I'll, I'll give some of my background and, and probably what led to the, the tipping point of I, I need to now say something about this.

1:57
But in terms of the context, when I say the mental health system is broken, I mean it's fundamentally broken.

2:06
And I don't know if it ever worked to begin with or in fact, if this was just by design and it's working exactly how it's supposed to work.

2:15
Regardless, in my view and in in the view of I guess many of my colleagues, my friends, my academic peers and so forth, it's definitely not doing the job that it is supposed to be doing.

2:29
So when I think about the mental health system and the outcomes, the results that we would expect of the system, I would expect to see our communities being supported in a way that was decreasing distress, mental health distress, burden of disease, and all of these other things that we would have as markers or hallmarks of.

2:50
And it doesn't seem to be doing that.

2:52
If anything, we're seeing the reverse happening.

2:54
And so that does lead the question or beg the question, is it actually working then?

3:00
And I think by and large, the answer is, is no.

3:05
And I came to this realisation through my own very long, convoluted dark night of the soul, as I guess many of us have probably had in various forms.

3:16
But I've been a clinical psychologist for a long time.

3:19
I've been practising, I've struggled academic and the clinical world's for a long time.

3:23
And what I had experienced myself was the burden and the cost that it was taking personally on me, while not actually really seeing these stellar outcomes in my clients either.

3:38
So it's taking this massive toll on me to do the work.

3:42
I felt as though it was taking advantage of my labour and asking and demanding me to fix the holes that were there through private practise and 1:00 to 1:00 work and all of the rest of it.

3:53
And I got to the point where I was really burnt out, untreated vicarious trauma, all of the rest of it.

4:02
And I thought for a very long time, and maybe this will resonate with some of the listeners, but I thought for a very long time it was a me problem.

4:09
I thought this was, I thought I was broken.

4:11
I thought this was my issue.

4:13
I thought that all of the other therapists out there can do this, so this must be something wrong with me that's creating so much suffering and distress doing my job.

4:24
And lo and behold, it wasn't.

4:27
But it did get to the point.

4:28
I talk about this moment where I call it my head in the bucket moment where I'm sitting on the kitchen floor in my home before a full day of clinic.

4:38
I'm literally have to walk out the door and I'm sitting on the floor, my head in a bucket because I am dry reaching and experiencing another panic attack at the thought of going into another full day clinic.

4:51
And my small son, I think he was about two or three at the time, was standing in front of me and his eyes are like wide.

4:58
And I can viscerally see this now and I've done lots of tapping around it, but I can still, I can still see it standing in front of me.

5:05
His eyes are wide, so concerned and his hands on my shoulder.

5:08
And he's like, mommy, you're OK.

5:11
And in that moment, that flash of inside of like, no, I'm not.

5:17
And I can't and I can't keep doing this.

5:19
And so at that point, I, I made the decision that I, I have to do something about this.

5:24
I have to make a change, whatever that change was going to be.

5:27
And slowly but surely, I've started to then talk more and more about these experiences.

5:31
And I think one of my core values is around social justice and equity, and I am neurodivergent.

5:41
So one of the things that I really struggle with is being untruthful or not not saying the truth when I know the truth is important.

5:51
So for me, the realisation was if I was to maintain my silence and not speak up about this, that I was complicit in sustaining the harm that was happening not just to me, but to all of my friends and colleagues out there as well.

6:08
So that's how we got here.

6:09
Yeah.

6:10
So I know.

6:11
And somewhere in that journey, just to, you know, go back to the my opening point about how we kind of connected somewhere in that journey, you actually applied for an academic job in my world.

6:22
And that's how we met because I was on the interview panel.

6:24
And I'm like, yeah, I hope.

6:25
And of course, the panel decides we're going to make an offer of this academic job to Doctor Haley Kelly.

6:30
And I'm like, yes, something about meeting you obviously resonated with me.

6:34
And I'm like, love to have you as a colleague.

6:36
That was it's not meant to be and that was part of your decision making.

6:40
And I'm guessing around the same time because you then post that kind of moved from the one on one therapy chair situation into more the one to many, maybe you know, call it programme kind of delivery, that sort of thing and the journey that's followed since.

6:57
So we obviously were meant to develop a different relationship.

7:02
Not that and good for you not coming into my world.

7:04
But you know, what has happened now when you say I want to go back to something you just said around you thought that this industry that you were in and the collegiate circles around you would be supportive of, you know, everyone achieving the greater good and each other.

7:23
I'm wondering that that wasn't the case and maybe hasn't been the case since you've been sharing online in social media forums and, you know, some of the platforms or whatever, just your ideas.

7:36
And like you're saying your value about truth and sort of saying, hey, is am I the only person out there that feels burnt out?

7:42
Just, you know, seeing one client at a time and wondering, am I making a difference?

7:47
Like is, has that not been the experience of the reception, I guess that you've had the the reception has been very mixed.

7:56
So I think it'd be the definition of mixed in the sense that on the one hand, I get lots of people saying thank you so much.

8:06
You have put words to something that I've been feeling but either didn't know how to describe or haven't been brave enough to speak to myself with fear of backlash.

8:14
So that's on the one side, I get this huge amount of gratitude and resonance from people, which is wonderful.

8:21
And I know that I'm on the right track when I get feedback like that and I know that I'm not just making something up.

8:27
On the other hand, I get the exact opposite.

8:30
It's very, very rarely in between.

8:32
It's either people like yes or people like no.

8:36
And the people who are who are no, they don't like it.

8:40
They don't like questioning the system or questioning the status quo.

8:46
They don't like challenging the norm or thinking outside of the box.

8:50
Especially in an industry like ours where ethics, Clinical Excellence, integrity, client care, all of these things are at the at the forefront of what we do and what we believe and how we should conduct ourselves.

9:02
So speaking against what is considered normal or status quo, I think can be misinterpreted sometimes as potentially being dangerous or endangering the public or going against our ethics.

9:15
I disagree wholeheartedly with that.

9:17
I think we have an ethical position that we or an ethical impetus that we actually need to start speaking about this and finding better ways.

9:25
But the backlash has been pretty significant and pretty severe.

9:28
And thank God I have you and a small group of other friends who I can talk through about some of this backlash because it's been pretty heavy, to be completely honest.

9:41
I've had DMS from people that have been quite scathing.

9:44
I've had Facebook posts in groups, professional groups that have been really condemning of me indirectly and directly.

9:52
I've had my LinkedIn account shut down.

9:56
So it has been a really big reaction.

10:00
And I just keep being reminded by you by by my friends.

10:07
Sometimes these big reactions are potentially information for us, the data that maybe we're on the right track and I know in US talking off air and, you know, just in that supportive kind of, you know, relationship that we have as well for each other.

10:24
And thank you for that comment.

10:25
But it goes goes both ways that, you know, sometimes I reach out to Haley, to everyone and just sort of go I'm having this idea and she's like, why are you thinking that?

10:33
But yeah, you're your premise in kind of sharing, hey, the mental health system may be broken.

10:42
I know is supported by the statistics out there about mental health.

10:47
Can you share a little bit about why this one on one model may not be appropriate moving into kind of the next, you know, decade and century and that kind of thing.

10:58
Why might that one on one model not be the most suitable?

11:03
And really we should be looking at something different for sure.

11:07
That's great question.

11:08
So I think in terms of statistics, obviously it's really hard to get very accurate specific statistics.

11:14
But from the research that I've done that my team's been doing, what we can see again from the evidence is that mental health is just continuing to decline despite our efforts, despite all of the advances in evidence based techniques and interventions, medications, all of the rest of it, despite all of that, how mental health decline is outpacing our ability to keep up with it.

11:35
And So what we see from a statistics perspective is something like 1 billion people worldwide are experiencing mental health distress.

11:43
But there are maybe 3,000,000 therapists worldwide able to support.

11:50
And that's like that's going to take into consideration.

11:53
Those 3,000,000 therapists are not in direct client facing roles.

11:57
They might be in academia or whatever else.

12:01
That's three million to 1 billion for 1 billion people who if we even try to do 1 to one therapy in the current format, in the current way that we have things set up, would take us probably lifetimes to get to the point where we've made an appreciable difference.

12:19
Meanwhile, the decline is outpacing our ability to do that effectively.

12:24
We're seeing mass exodus of people leaving the profession and they are leaving at a rate faster than we were able to train them and refill at the bottom.

12:35
So if anything, we're not seeing more places become available in training pathways.

12:42
We are seeing training pathways being reduced and cut, numbers being halved.

12:48
And I think that's for a myriad of different reasons that we could go into both political and all of the rest of our business decisions.

12:56
But I think at the end of the day, the fact is we don't have enough people coming into the profession and training them quickly enough and adequately enough that we're ever going to be able to meet that demand.

13:08
So I think just from that that point of view, those statistics, we didn't even talk about things like burnout and disability that's experienced by the profession, professionals themselves.

13:19
But then I mean, we're, we are unable to do our jobs at the probably right that we want to need to all other things like those statistics alone to me are really clear indicators we're not doing things effectively to curb demand.

13:38
And I don't know about you, but I got into this profession to make a difference.

13:42
I wanted to leave the world a slightly better place than when I got here.

13:46
I really want to help and so that it creates this massive amount of dissonance when I can feel the want to help, but feeling at the same time like I can't.

13:57
And I don't know if that resonates with you in the same way, but yeah, yeah, totally.

14:02
And, you know, supervisory role, which I do for obviously some of our graduates, I have found in the last decade that it the, that the bucket moment that you had is happening faster.

14:16
So this is just my clinical experience that if I'm supervising, it used to take kind of, you know, colleagues 10 years before they'd sort of go, oh, I feel like the tools that are available to me as in the therapies they've learnt or the techniques.

14:30
And obviously we're talking, you know, decades ago it would take them 10 years to sort of go, oh, I really need to be looking for something else.

14:40
Now I'm finding it takes them a year, 12 months and they're going all right, this stuff that I learnt at university isn't helping the complexity of the presentation that's coming into my private practise work or my hospital job or whatever it is.

14:54
It appears that the complexity of distress that's presenting and the tools that they've been taught, which, you know, at some level might still be in a different kind of, you know, model or wave of therapy if you like.

15:09
You know, we're talking about the fourth wave here, which includes sort of more the somatic based, including EMDR and tapping and somatic processing.

15:16
But some of what they're being taught still is in the way before that, so much more in sort of the talk based therapies.

15:25
And that's what I'm finding is causing the frustration.

15:27
And I don't know if that is another overlay that is part of your experience, Haley, that it's kind of like the tools.

15:34
It's like having the hammer, the wrong hammer for the nail kind of thing that it's like, and that's what I'm finding my graduates like, all right, well, the stuff I've learnt isn't meeting the demands of the people coming through the door.

15:46
Like, was that part of it with the bucket moment as well?

15:50
Yeah, absolutely.

15:51
And I was having a conversation with the president of API here, which is one of our professional bodies.

15:59
And we're talking about the idea that when they do their next training pathway reform and really look at the training pathways and restructuring them.

16:09
And she was talking about the idea that our training pathways are not equipping therapists or psychologists or whatever it is, whatever title we're going to use to, it's not preparing them adequately for the real world.

16:20
We need them to be job ready.

16:21
We need them ready, ready for the real world.

16:25
And I'm like, but are we actually looking at that the right way?

16:31
Like what does that actually mean when it comes to our training pathways?

16:34
Because I think probably the main reason why I'm here and why we're having this conversation is because I think we have become so obsessed with evidence based interventions and scientific rigour and all of these things.

16:51
And we talk a lot about evidence based interventions.

16:54
And we should, of course, but we also need evidence based infrastructure that's going to be capable of delivering, delivering those things in a way that meets the need.

17:05
Because without therapists, who can adapt, who can lead, who can innovate, even the most powerful modalities and interventions, doesn't matter if they're 4th wave, 3rd wave, or anything else, they're going to get stuck in the bottleneck of the outdated system.

17:23
And that is going to therefore take a toll on the person trying their best to deliver those interventions, but to a world that just doesn't exist anymore.

17:34
It doesn't exist anymore.

17:36
And I know you include digital literacy as part of that, but you know, in and I know I want to talk about the pillars that are in this, you know, mental health 3.0 framework that you've developed.

17:47
But I think what I'm hearing you say, and I'm reflecting to on the academic world, then what we teach and things like that, yeah, is not only do we now have AI, which we didn't a couple of years ago, like it just wasn't available like it is now to.

18:03
But are you talking to that?

18:04
If you know?

18:07
And and I'm going to talk about you as an example.

18:09
So as someone that kind of went OK, the one on one bit's not working for me anymore, maybe not working in my, you know, family life and things like that.

18:17
And you had obviously some innovation and inspiration to kind of go, I might be able to help therapists of, you know, many backgrounds to develop programmes that would be able to be delivered to many more people in that same kind of hour.

18:34
So one to many, is it that the delivery of those kind of things doesn't have the, like, where's the bottleneck?

18:42
Like is it around the acceptance or the framework or the like psychologists can't use testimonials?

18:50
Is it like the ethics around that hasn't caught up?

18:54
Like I'm trying to kind of get that picture.

18:56
Yeah, I, I think all of those things are definitely true here.

19:00
So I think the bottleneck is firstly, we're trained and I think we are, it's embedded that everything that we do is designed to support one person at a time or applied to these small groups, right?

19:17
Like we can do therapy groups of like 8 to 10 people, Great, fantastic.

19:20
But I think inherently when we think about therapy, it's I'm sitting in an office on a chair with another person on a chair or maybe two people on a chair.

19:31
And I think that that is something that creates A bottleneck because we're not thinking outside of that box.

19:36
That is the box that we are confined to.

19:38
Therefore, that's the box that we create from as well.

19:40
So I think that inherently creates a bottleneck for us.

19:43
I think we lack the skills training and education to think differently.

19:47
We haven't been equipped with the skills to think about these problems at scale and therefore device solutions to that.

19:55
And I do think devising solutions and being able to think strategically like this.

20:00
Is a skill and I do think that it is the job of our universities and our trainings to be able to equip us to think like this.

20:09
I think that it is an innovation meets innovation meets regulation issue.

20:18
I think we are overly regulated.

20:20
Yes, we need regulation.

20:21
I'm not saying that this is not black or white, but what I am saying is that our regulations and the restrictions that are posed upon us to keep the public safe are restrictive and also create significance, significant amount of risk aversion for us to do anything that might be again, perceived as stepping outside of the line for fear of getting in trouble.

20:46
I think we don't have the systems set up to be able to deliver these things effectively and appropriately.

20:52
I don't think we have the skills or confidence to speak about what we do at scale.

20:56
So, for example, getting onto social media, making out, making our knowledge and educating the public more accessible and available.

21:05
If you asked a therapist about creating a TikTok account to start sharing some of their thoughts more, they would literally rather curl up and die than get on TikTok.

21:15
So I think there are so many factors here that are creating these bottlenecks, but I think the real bottleneck here is we are trying to save.

21:24
We're trying to fix a problem with a tool that just does not work.

21:30
And why isn't it working?

21:31
We're getting really frustrated and angry and burning out and leaving the profession thinking it's an US problem when we've been given a tool bag that just it no longer is effective, if it ever was.

21:41
It's no longer effective anymore for the way people are accessing mental health education, accessing support using AI and digital technologies, How influencers are able to speak more open and liberally about mental health and mental health subjects.

21:56
I think it's there are so many.

21:57
Clearly I'm getting a bit rolled up so I'll pull back.

21:59
But I think this is so multifaceted and complex, but there are many issues why we are bottlenecked.

22:08
I think that's a really interesting point though about not just TikTok, but that mental health information that people are seeking, they are seeking through social media platforms, aren't they?

22:21
So it could be we don't need to name them, but they're going onto an app and going, I'm self diagnosing myself, maybe with certain symptomology because I'm listening to someone who isn't a mental health professional, but they're talking about their own experience and I'm relating to that.

22:37
So therefore I self diagnose myself and that could be in the, I see it happen in the diet kind of, you know, someone's change of diet is coming through those mediums, not just their psychological health.

22:49
It's like, oh, I have those symptoms too.

22:51
So therefore I'll change my diet and self diagnose myself in a certain way.

22:56
So is that happening?

22:58
And is that part of this conversation that if we're not as trained, highly credentialed professionals sharing our information, which is evidence based and grounded in scientific research, if we're not sharing that in those platforms because we're worried about regulation, well, someone is still sharing that information and they don't have the credentials and they don't have the evidence based and they don't have access to the whatever because they're only speaking maybe from personal experience, is that part of what's happening?

23:28
1100 percent, 100%.

23:30
So we know factually speaking, that I think the number one source of mental health literacy in education is now from social media.

23:40
And you can broaden that term out to include things like YouTube and podcasts as well.

23:45
So people are getting their mental health education and building their mental health literacy from social media.

23:52
We know that the vast majority of therapists are not on social media, so where the hell are they getting this information from then?

24:00
Like, that terrifies me to the core.

24:02
And I am not saying that there is not a place for us to be collegial and work together with people, with lived experience, with life coaches, with tech companies, all of these other, absolutely.

24:16
But at the moment, we don't even have a seat at the table.

24:20
And I see that as a really massive problem.

24:22
We should be leading the conversation on mental health.

24:26
If not us, then who?

24:27
Who is more qualified than us?

24:30
But we don't even have a seat at the table yet.

24:32
And I think I feel as though that is a really big concern, especially again, as more people are going to want answers, they are going to be seeking this information.

24:42
We need to start stepping into a more visible public role where we can get this really great high quality information in the hands of the people who need it.

24:52
And at the same time, we have to realise that, well, yes, social media at the moment is the number one place where people are consuming mental health education.

25:00
That's going to be eclipsed probably by next year by AI.

25:07
And again, who's building AI?

25:09
Who, who's building these models and the way that they interact on subjects like mental health?

25:16
Not us, no, no.

25:21
Just like I have to join TikTok.

25:25
My social media lady, she's like, you're not on TikTok.

25:28
I'm like, I know anyway, OK, It leads me it leads me to the question, which is all right, come on, tell us what needs to be part of the solution here.

25:40
Tell us about the framework, which I know a little bit about and but I really want to start the conversation and get people thinking And you know, the listener that's listening into this kind of podcast, I suspect is really open and kind of, you know, the 4th wave in therapy kind of title of our podcast probably has drawn someone in that is kind of going, Yep, I'm interested in something there.

26:03
So tell us about about, you know, maybe what you have been sharing too in in some of those posts.

26:08
I know you got banned from LinkedIn, but that's their loss.

26:12
The pillars that you know, what I know a little bit about, but that you see as maybe being vital to this journey moving forward for our profession.

26:24
Yeah, great question.

26:26
So I'll, I'll talk about these using the language of competencies.

26:30
Competencies is probably a, a more familiar term than pillars for people.

26:34
So I want you to think about these as competencies.

26:36
And we're trained as we're going through our training pathways on various different competencies.

26:40
And these competencies are supposed to make us ready.

26:44
But again, we know that they are limited.

26:47
They are very much painted on, on the old version of reality that the world that no longer exists.

26:53
And so I've been thinking about this for probably 12 to 24 months now, this idea of the next era of mental health and what that needs to look like in order to do the jobs that we all signed up for.

27:07
And we are moving if we are not already in the next era of mental health.

27:12
And that is what we would call the digital first world where need is out weighing demand, where demand is outstripping our ability to keep up with it, all of those things.

27:23
So I am 100% committed.

27:26
I believe it is definitely why I am put on the earth in terms of how I'm going to be able to make a difference is I'm going to help therapist to become future ready therapist with my mental health 3 point O model.

27:38
And it has five competencies that I think are going to be probably paramount moving into this era of mental health.

27:44
And the first one is around innovation, literacy.

27:47
So this is the idea that we need to be able to create and adapt existing models of care.

27:54
So we need to be able to create new models of care, but adapt existing models of care so that they actually function in a way that makes an appreciable difference and they're effective and all of the rest of it.

28:07
So that is first we need to develop the skills in innovation literacy.

28:12
And the second one is around ethical adaptability.

28:15
And I think this is a really big one and it's important.

28:17
It's probably the least tangible in terms of what does this actually mean.

28:21
But what I see is ethical adaptability is helping therapists to be able to navigate a very ethically grey world, a very ethically complex world where again, our ethical frameworks that we are taught and our code of ethics, they don't really equip us to confidently navigate an ethically great world.

28:50
They just don't.

28:51
So how can we help therapists to make values based decisions and feel confident when perhaps some of that guidance is lacking or hasn't yet caught up to a really quickly changing world?

29:04
The third competency is around digital fluency.

29:07
We've touched on this already, but I think this is going to be probably, I was to say, out of all of them, I think this is probably going to be the the most needed.

29:16
This includes how can we make the work that we do more accessible, How can we make mental health education more accessible in a multitude of different formats, whether that's things like group programmes or AI or other tech solutions, or create a community based programmes.

29:36
Whatever it is, we need to be fluent in the digital landscape and the digital options that are out there that will help us to translate our work in the formats that people are actually going to access.

29:51
The 4th competencies around professional reclamation.

29:55
And I love this one because it, it hits to the core of my rebelliousness, I think.

30:01
And my, my, probably my tendency to take risks where others would probably not take risks.

30:07
But this is about owning our platform and really stepping into leaders in mental health.

30:15
Because again, the space is currently out there and we are not in it.

30:19
We're locked in our offices and fighting amongst amongst ourselves.

30:23
We need to step into being the leaders in mental health and supporting our communities as leaders.

30:32
We need to embrace a leadership identity.

30:35
And the fifth one, which speaks to my values is around equity driven leadership.

30:40
And this is all about embedding things like justice, access, equity into care delivery.

30:48
Because the reality is the vast majority of people will never access one to one therapy, either because they can't geographically or financially, or they won't.

31:01
They're just not interested in that.

31:03
It does not appeal to them and they never will.

31:05
And if that's the case, we need to be able to provide means to them of accessing high quality evidence based care in a way that they are going to access that meets them where they are instead of demanding that they come to us because they won't.

31:21
That's such a yeah, that that last point there, that sums it up.

31:25
We're we're expecting the people that need it most to actually come through a very traditional model.

31:31
And I mean, not only our parents and grandparents generation, that was such a foreign concept, yet they were, you know, veterans from, you know, war zones and combat kind of eras and great depressions and things like that.

31:46
And they needed the assistance that that wasn't their model.

31:49
They didn't come to therapy.

31:51
And then beyond us are the the younger people out there that now are consuming because they've grown up in a digital world.

31:58
And you know, we've now got the generations that obviously have had access to iPads and whatever they're starting to come into universities.

32:05
So they've had it their whole lives.

32:08
Now we're like, now you should come through our traditional model as well.

32:11
If you have anxiety or stress or whatever it might be.

32:14
And again, we may have, we may be missing them because they're like, I'm not doing that.

32:19
I'm not going to pay $250 to come and sit down.

32:22
I'll just consume it on my head or I'll talk to TPT about it.

32:28
100%.

32:30
I, I, I think that is a reality.

32:32
And whether we like it or not, again, we can dig our heels in the sand all we want and we can pretend that this doesn't exist and that we are going to continue on our merry way doing the things that we're currently doing.

32:41
But the reality is that the world has moved on and if we are not prepared to meet people where they are, regardless of what we think about the medium.

32:49
So whether or not you like tech or whether or not you despise social media or you have reservations about AI, that does not change the fact that that's currently where the world is and will be more is headed in that direction even more than we probably even want to admit, right?

33:09
We have to just to accept the reality that this is where the world is going and if we have the skills to help, then we just need to figure out how do we match our skills with the method of consumption or delivery that is actually going to make a difference.

33:24
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:26
I'm with you.

33:27
I know you.

33:28
And please don't get me wrong.

33:29
Like I am not saying that one to one therapy is bad or wrong or should be completely thrown out the window.

33:35
I'm not saying throw the baby out with the bathwater.

33:37
I'm saying Ant right?

33:39
So this whole conversation is about evolution, not destroying.

33:44
So one to one therapy will always have its place.

33:46
It is important part of the way we deliver.

33:49
It's important relationally, all of those things and that will never change.

33:54
But what we also need to recognise is we need to have that end.

33:58
And we have we have completely neglecting the end part of this equation.

34:05
And we have such a strong foundation as a profession that it is we're in a really good opportunity phase to build.

34:13
And I love that it's, it's this end.

34:16
Yeah, it's, it's, it's time to build.

34:18
It's time to build from our very strong foundation.

34:21
Haley, I've got one more question.

34:22
And look, if anyone listening is kind of like, what were those frameworks?

34:25
Again, the competency is those 5.

34:28
Haley has given us a document.

34:32
So that is included here in the show notes so that you can act.

34:35
Absolutely.

34:35
Take that, read it again and reach out to Haley if you do want to be part of the journey forward.

34:41
Haley, I've got one more question.

34:42
All right.

34:43
So this is all part of what we're dealing with.

34:46
And, you know, I know that there are, you know, people around you that do support you and, you know, allow these conversations without judgement.

34:57
What still gives you hope in in this story, looking at what has happened and transpired in the last sort of five years, including a worldwide pandemic, But what still gives you hope?

35:10
It gives me hope.

35:11
I have so much hope.

35:12
Like, I know this was probably a very heavy episode in a lot of ways and probably quite different to a lot of the guests that you've had on before.

35:17
And I don't want people leaving here going, Oh my gosh, everything has gone to crap.

35:22
We're doomed.

35:24
This is, it's not a bleak this, this is, I think one of those really important defining moments in our profession where we have a choice to make.

35:34
And I think for me that feels incredibly inspiring because where there was hopelessness, now I feel hope.

35:43
We have a choice.

35:44
We have a choice that we can make.

35:46
No one is coming to save us.

35:47
I say this all the time, but we have to realise no one, the politicians, the tech companies, the billionaires of the world, they're not coming to save us.

35:55
We need to do the job ourselves.

35:57
And what gives me so much hope is that I see this happening literally every single day, both in the communities that I have established, but then also people who I just connect with on my very new LinkedIn account that I just got back up.

36:13
Socials, They email me.

36:14
I'm getting DMS from people literally every day saying here's what I'm doing, here's what I'm trying now, here's how you have helped me to think differently.

36:24
So I see therapists who have started social media accounts where they are reclaiming their voice and literally refusing to inherit the silence of the profession that has been.

36:36
And I see a lot of our younger generation doing that, which gives me so much hope.

36:40
I love that so very, very much.

36:43
I'm seeing communities being formed around innovation, not just like survival communities, but around innovation.

36:51
How can we come together and do things differently?

36:53
How can we support each other to heal in a different way?

36:56
I see, as I said, younger therapists doing this job is probably so much better than some of our older people.

37:01
But I see our younger therapists as having a really pivotal role and see them every day stepping into roles of leadership and seeing themselves as change makers.

37:12
And they will be, I have absolutely no doubt.

37:15
I see a lot of cross disciplinary collaborations happening that are effectively breaking down the silos that have existed between our professions and our disciplines for a really long time.

37:26
That gives me so much hope too.

37:28
And what I do see happening is with any movement, with any, I'll use the word revolution because it does feel like one of those moments, right, where you're going to rise up.

37:37
We are going to make a difference.

37:38
We are taking a stand and we're saying this is not OK and we're going to do something about it.

37:43
But what we see with revolutions and movements, I think the statistic is something like you need 3%, yeah, 3% creates enough inertia, tipping point for movement to take hold, right?

37:57
And the recognition that change quite often happens at the edges, right?

38:03
It happens at the periphery.

38:04
It doesn't happen in the middle, it doesn't happen by the big organisations or in the politicians offices.

38:12
It happens on the edges and I see those edges every single day and people are doing this stuff.

38:18
They're navigating the complexity and the greyness the best that they can, but the edges are getting louder and louder every day and they're making more of a difference every single day.

38:30
And that is so inspiring.

38:32
I don't know about you, but I find that really inspiring.

38:33
It gives me a lot of hope.

38:35
Absolutely.

38:37
Oh, Doctor Haley, Kelly, everyone, if you are listening in and and thinking I need to listen more to Haley, Haley has a podcast.

38:45
I'm making sure that's in the show notes, but therapist rising.

38:49
So you need to jump on and you can actually go back and Haley unpacks the story of the banning of LinkedIn and her social media experience.

38:59
Go back and have a listen.

39:00
It is fabulous.

39:01
As well as many, many fabulous interviews with people, change makers that are out there.

39:07
Hayley, this has been, I'm going to put it out there.

39:11
It's the episode of the season.

39:13
I'm getting goosebumps just as I say that this has been such a good conversation.

39:19
And maybe for someone for the first time listening in to kind of go actually, yeah, I haven't thought about it like that.

39:25
Or maybe I have and there's some confirmation and some hope.

39:29
And I I really like that you finished on the possibilities that are already happening out there.

39:34
And you're absolutely right.

39:36
You know, you know, whether it's the fourth wave or just on the fringes or the outside.

39:41
And yeah, it only takes 3 and 10 to kind of band together and, and change will start to happen.

39:47
So from the bottom of my heart, thank you for sharing this today.

39:51
And.

39:52
And yeah, just telling us, you know, your experiences and what's been happening.

39:57
Thank you.

39:57
I appreciate it.

39:58
And and just I guess one last word to the the person who who's listening, if this episode has triggered you in in any way, both good, bad or anything in between, I think it's just really important to sit and reflect on what is happening for you right now.

40:14
What is it triggering in you?

40:15
Is it fear?

40:15
Is it risk aversion?

40:17
Is it hope and excitement?

40:20
And none of that is wrong or bad.

40:22
I think, again, we're just at a moment in time where we have an opportunity to really start making a difference in the world in a way that we have never been able to before.

40:33
And it's time for us to be really freaking cliched.

40:38
It is time for us to rise.

40:39
Like, we need to step up and do this together.

40:42
So we're in it together, and that's OK.

40:44
If after this episode you hate me and you're like, she's wrong.

40:47
This is ridiculous.

40:49
That's OK.

40:50
I'm OK with that.

40:51
I'm OK with that because the reality is we're moving in this direction and Hayley has tapping everyone it it'll be OK.

40:58
So and if this resonates anyone and you want to send this on to someone, you know, share the episode and sort of, you know, send a friend, tag a friend.

41:07
Obviously, you know, join us for some other episodes too, just to sort of hear.

41:10
Yeah, other leaders and and that's what we're all about here is, yeah, a little bit on the cutting edge and the fringe as well kind of going well, what is out there working in the clinical world, regardless of whether it's on a list somewhere as you know, having a gold standard star on it or something like that, because lots of things still work.

41:30
Haley, thank you so much.

41:32
All of those details are below, everybody.

41:34
Handout included, as well as Haley's podcast and how you can actually connect with Haley if you do want to be part of, you know, any of her frameworks and workshops and trainings and things moving forward.

41:46
So thank you so much, Haley.

41:47
Thanks, Peter.

41:48
See you in another episode, everyone.

Website: https://therapistsrising.com/

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